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Post by hollywoodswagga on Sept 14, 2011 17:16:45 GMT -5
I was not fortunate enough to play at the highest level so I don’t know everything just pointing out some basics. Everybody has different philosophy so there is no right or wrong. I do not want to disparage this coaching staff or go against them I just know kids read the board daily. I do think this staff is very knowledgeable and the team will be prepared to play.
Now with what I saw the big plays in drive I am sure the coaching staff corrected the issues in the film room. Without knowing the defensive play call, having the back film copy, or having watch the full App State film vs. V tech to know there tendencies. I can only take an educated guess for the responsibilities of the players.
Again I am just looking from the outside in, on the first long run it looks the inside lb shot the gap getting cut off by an o line man the DE looks to have lost contain (depending on what he is being coached) the db or olb I can not tell he took on the TE but got washed out which made the hole bigger. He should have taking him on square. squeezing the hole down while maintaining his outside leverage. So with the lb getting cut off the DE losing contain and the db/olb taking a poor angle to take on the block there goes your hole on a third down and five inside their ten yard line giving up potential field advantage.
With the pass completions I can possibly give credit to App States offense not necessarily anything the coaching staff or players could have done differently. Reason being its about match ups. If I see a LB/Safety on a WR I will take the match up every play. Do I like to see a Safety matched up with a WR with free release no but I can see what the defense was trying to do. Would I have liked to see some sub packages to try and get better match ups yes however I do not know the personnel on the defense.
But what do you do can you stand up the weak side DE and once he sees run he has outside force and when there is a pass he drops in the flat or hook/curl depending on the coverage. There are multiple things you can do. You can take out the DE and put a LB/S/CB in. Maybe drop down the safeties more. This is the think you have to be able to adjust on the fly you can not go in saying this is going to work or not having multiple packages because the other team will make adjustments as well. There is not one way of stopping a team that is why the Patriots and Packers are successful now because of their options they have on offense. They look for the mismatch and take advantage of it. This is why you should have multiple fronts packages to figure out what works best on any given game.
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Post by hollywoodswagga on Sept 14, 2011 17:17:14 GMT -5
@ saabman try so hard on what?
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Post by hollywoodswagga on Sept 14, 2011 17:28:02 GMT -5
Better yet please do not respond to my question I do not want to go back and forth with you over the internet! If you want criticize teenagers fine that is your right. If you want to judge peoples performance some day you will be judge so Im done.
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saabman
Official BDF member
Posts: 11,829
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Post by saabman on Sept 14, 2011 18:25:44 GMT -5
@ hollywoodswagga do you think that your the only one on this site that has played in the SHOW or Highest level as you put it. You of all people should understand what it's like and if you can't handle being CRITICIZED or CRITIQUED in College then heaven help you if you make it to the Show!! I do not do back and forth Rhetoric just facts baby, just facts. I have been judged on my performance that is why I no how it is . You must have a short memory! You pick your self up and get better and you move on. Because if you don't, it only gets harder to perform at your best . I don't see any Teenagers playing college ball They are all YOUNG ADULTS to me.
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Post by Aggie Monster on Sept 14, 2011 18:33:57 GMT -5
In man they were to fast. They would have burned our asses bad if we played man. We played a soft cover 2 most of the time and dared them to throw underneath so we could make the tackle.
So our coaches knew we were to slow for man unless we were blitzing. Problem with the soft cover 2 is that our initial DB never made the tackle. He always needed help. Easy pitch and catch when that's the case.
We were outgunned, which made it a hard game to coach. Hopefully Coastal will be a better matchup for us. They are pretty balanced but dont have a standout WR like Quick, so our DBs should play a lot better.
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Post by ohsixrain on Sept 14, 2011 19:26:54 GMT -5
I don't know that much about schemes but, I would think any db coming out of high school would/should have okay skills at the position. I mean come on now...you need to have some ball skills. From what I saw, our corners just allowed everything to happen in front of them and made the tackle. If you are resigned to play that then come up and lay the wood. I would rather get beat with my dbs playing aggressive. It seems the confidence in our corners is very low.
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Post by hollywoodswagga on Sept 14, 2011 20:01:47 GMT -5
I do not know if you misinterpreted what I said, but I have not played in the "show" or in anyone’s professional ranks. I was merely giving my opinion to the guys on the message board. I'm all for the young men having thick skin, but I feel that the criticism has to be just and that they are critiqued on their actual mistakes. All I was saying is that there is no way of knowing everything that goes on, unless you know what they have been coached to do, and you know the actual coverage and the pre-studied down and distance tendencies of the offense.
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Post by ohsixrain on Sept 14, 2011 20:24:54 GMT -5
All I know is your corners have to be the most confident players on the defense.
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Post by jaffejoffa on Sept 14, 2011 21:12:43 GMT -5
I do not think App State have superior athletes than we do with the skill positions. We have a very athletic team that can run with any team in the FCS subdivision. When you are coached up and you know where you are going you look faster than a person guessing or just going off natural ability. How many of you would take Wes Welker over Benny Sapp in a race? If you still think Charles Woodson and Champ Bailey still run 4.3 forties like they did in their early 20’s than you are sadly mistaken. They have great technique and understanding of the game. Darrelle Revis and Asante Samuel will not be the fastest players on the field every Sunday ,however they can cover every receiver they face. Speed does not translate into being a great football player unless you play for Al Davis, and we all see how that’s worked out. Would you take an athlete that runs a 4.6 forty but thinks and plays like he runs a 4.4; or do you take the guy who runs 4.4 but plays at a 4.6 level?
Ive never played in the secondary, but it looks to me that the defensive backs alignment was the cause of them not making plays; unless that was what the scheme dictated them to do.
As stated in my earlier post, if a receiver is running a 5-6 yard route, the qb will take a 3 step drop or in shotgun formation he will catch and throw. With the db being 10 yards off the ball there will be no way to compete with throws especially when they are backpedaling so fast at the snap of the ball. They were giving the qb an easy throw while giving the receiver more room to maneuver and be an athlete after the catch. We all have seen defensive backs warm up or at practice and they do the drill with coach holding the ball bringing it back while the db starts slow than fast backpedal depending the coach the coaches direction. That drill translates to reading the qb three step or five step drop (which we weren’t doing). The faster you run the more time you take to slow down, so if a rec is only running 5 yds, and you are already too deep b/c you backpedaling too fast ,you will never make plays on short routes (As shown on the film). In my opinion, this should have been communicated via uptop/box during the game so that an adjustment could have been made. Then again, we don’t know the exact scheme, teaching or methodologies of whats going on. Im not the one getting paid the big bucks to coach, just my 2 cents.
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Post by Aggie Monster on Sept 14, 2011 21:57:25 GMT -5
Guys, we played a lot of cover 2 zone. Its what you do when you dont match up speed wise. Thats why we kept giving up 5 and 6 yard plays. It was not because every corner we have sucks, but we did not match up well 1 for 1 against their wide-outs and our staff knew it. If we have 2 good corners to their 3 or 4 wideouts we could NOT play man-to-man. Our 3rd corner would get embarrassed all night. It's either get toasted for big plays or let them try and dink and dunk you down the field if they have the patience to do so. Maybe we get lucky and pick a bad throw off, tipped ball maybe. App was patient and accurate so it destroyed the entire strategy. It didn't work, lets move on.
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Post by hollywoodswagga on Sept 15, 2011 7:36:13 GMT -5
I was not at the game so I don’t know how much cover 2 we played I can only go by the series BORNTHRILLA posted. Maybe we played a lot of cover 2 to get extra guys in run support. The series that was posted yes you see two high safeties but look at the corners there is no way that is cover two with them backpedaling the way they were it looks more to be a cover 4. Cover 2 is design to take away the short routes because the corners should be sitting at 5-6 yards not backpedaling maintaining outside leverage and forcing the wr inside to the safeties. Which you will take away certain throw by positioning on the field.
I know a few people that play and have played at App State and one of them told me “there are no dexter jacksons or davon fowlkes on this team.” Also on App States jr pro day Quick ran in the 4.6 range. He is a big rec not a burner.
Last thing and I will let this go also. We can not think that speed and natural ability will win games. The skill positions are crafty positions. You can not go out there and wing it. Two points, look at the teams in the NFL that run a lot of cover 2. When those teams are successful what is the one common denominator they have a great pass rush because it is zone if you don’t have a pass rush with the qb having all day to throw primetime himself couldn’t stop completions. However if you a great pass rush it will create a lot of problems for the offense. Technique is everything in football specifically with the skill positions. Why do you always hear that the wr position is the one of the hardest positions to transition to in the next level. Why because they have been going off natural ability there whole playing career running past or jumping over and not learning how to get open with all routes. Defensive back is same thing if you are at a program that have dominating d line you do not have to cover as long you can take gambles without using proper technique you will get away with things that will kill you at the next level. This is not the old days with the biggest, strongest, and fastest players will be the best player. If you look at NFL rosters there are not a lot of first and second round draft picks still playing in previous years. Because some coaches believe they can take a guy who looks good in t shirts and shorts and mold them to be players. And we see how often that does not work.
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Post by Bornthrilla on Sept 15, 2011 7:44:33 GMT -5
Back in my day we didn't run a lot of Cover 2 ... unless of course you count the parked cars on the street as extra defenders.
It was pretty much just man-to-man defense.
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Post by Aggie Monster on Sept 15, 2011 7:51:50 GMT -5
No disrepect hollywood, but to have not seen the entire game you sure are assuming a lot about how our defense was played. The point I was making was we played a lot of zone. Cover 2, cover 4. Whatever. We couldn't match-up man-to-man(whether it be speed or just "craftiness"). Maybe quick wasn't a burner, but if he wasn't then we are REALLY slow cause he looked faster than every other skilled player on the field. Sometimes field speed dont translate to 40-time.
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Post by hollywoodswagga on Sept 15, 2011 8:13:07 GMT -5
You are exactly right Aggie Monster I am only going by what was shown. And the point Im trying to make is that technique and being coached up make average athlete look great and not so good coaching can make average players look horrible. That is a general statement Im not taking about our coaching staff or any pacticular program. JaffeJoffa stated something very similar with his last post. "When you are coached up and you know where you are going you look faster than a person guessing or just going off natural ability. " I believe we have the athletes to run with every team in our division in a foot race. Check this out this out: www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=88689&draftyear=2012&genpos=WRHe obviously plays faster than what he runs hell so does everyone on that team.
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Post by Aggie Monster on Sept 15, 2011 8:49:00 GMT -5
Damn!! He needs a "40 coach" badly. That's probably all that is. He was all over the place from 4.52 up to 4.74. That's a sign that he's doing something different every time he runs it. A 40-coach could shed off about .1 or so and keep the time consistent. Trust me, with the right guy working with him he could get under 4.52 consistently. I've seen high schoolers shed .2 off just by practicing 40 technique with the right coach. No additional speed training was needed. Just the right stance and repetition. Thats why I never put a lot of stock in high schoolers official 40-time. I have to see them run.
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