Maxell
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Post by Maxell on Dec 9, 2008 23:57:31 GMT -5
...for basketball it may. I ran across this paper which is a statistical analysis of the relationship of revenue imbalance to competitive imbalance within college sports conferences. It looked at both major and mid major conferences and concluded that if you spend more money compared to others in your conference, you win. The funny thing is that it is more effective at mid-major level in basketball (compared to the majors and to football). The study also implies that in mid-major conferences there are only 1 or 2 schools that consistently win and those are the ones that spend the most money compared to their counterparts, whether it is basketball, football or the non-revenue sports. The conclusion is nothing new but it was interesting to see a thesis paper written on it given it has been a discussion on the board lately and I know Wheels made his pitch to the BOT about this subject. thesis.haverford.edu/dspace/bitstream/10066/1456/1/2008WilcoxD.pdfSo the question is: Should we shift some resources as well as create more revenue streams for basketball in order to distance ourselves from the rest of MEAC in basketball spending since it has a greater chance of being money well spent?
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Maxell
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Post by Maxell on Dec 10, 2008 0:16:09 GMT -5
The lowly Southland Conference got $5 million from the NCAA basketball tournament in 2006. How much does the MEAC get each year for having a one and done performance every year? Conference USA gets about $15 million per year.
IMO, the MEAC does not currently have a flagship program in basketball. Why not A&T(like it was)?
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Post by DOOMS on Dec 10, 2008 7:04:37 GMT -5
Are you beginning to see why I've been clamoring for us to move to division II for ages?
I wonder how much the ciaa teams get from their tournament. I wonder how much more they'd get if a larger school like A&T was in it. I wonder how much further our budget would go if we held it where it is and moved to division II. I wonder how much more support all our programs would get as a result. I wonder if we could have billboards greeting you upon entrance to the state saying "home of national champion NC A&T."
I know, I'll just be left to wonder...
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Dec 10, 2008 13:16:38 GMT -5
without knowing where and how much of our resources are currently allocated to other programs, i can't say we should shift resources to basketball. however, i would agree that we should "create" or raise more revenue for both football and basketball. i specify those two sports because they generate more revenue than all the others.
but more money alone doesn't automatically equal more wins. more money must be complemented by competent efficient coaches and athletics administrators. there must be checks and balances in place to assure the funds are spent appropriately and wisely. if we can do that, i'm all for it...
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Post by aahhbigboy on Dec 10, 2008 13:29:49 GMT -5
without knowing where and how much of our resources are currently allocated to other programs, i can't say we should shift resources to basketball. however, i would agree that we should "create" or raise more revenue for both football and basketball. i specify those two sports because they generate more revenue than all the others. but more money alone doesn't automatically equal more wins. more money must be complemented by competent efficient coaches and athletics administrators. there must be checks and balances in place to assure the funds are spent appropriately and wisely. if we can do that, i'm all for it... Wow, 2 for 2 where I've got to agree wholeheartedly. For A&T, I'm a basketball guy but I'd have to say that our school and the athletic department would be better served if we could get the football program off the floor. Therefore, I don't know about focusing more funds on the basketball program. If our guys were progressing as well as the ladies were, it might be a different story. Unfortunately, our administrators have proven to be inept when it comes to the proper distribution of funds and I'm just not that confident that everything would go the way that it should. I definitely would support some rehabilitation project to Corbett though.
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Dec 10, 2008 13:51:48 GMT -5
Are you beginning to see why I've been clamoring for us to move to division II for ages? I wonder how much the ciaa teams get from their tournament. I wonder how much more they'd get if a larger school like A&T was in it. I wonder how much further our budget would go if we held it where it is and moved to division II. I wonder how much more support all our programs would get as a result. I wonder if we could have billboards greeting you upon entrance to the state saying "home of national champion NC A&T." I know, I'll just be left to wonder... can't argue with your rationale. besides, that's your opinion. but i disagree wholeheartedly as far as dropping down to d2. and its because of my own personal preferences, not saying i'm right or you're wrong. but for me, a&t belongs with the most elite hbcu's which is what you'll find in the meac and swac. to drop down to d2 just to earn a cheap championship doesn't appeal to me at all. a d2 conference championship or even a d2 national championship is not very prestigious on the national sports scene. most college football fans don't know who won the d2 national championship and don't care. i get no gratification whatsoever from winning a d2 championship. so we drop down to d2 and sweep thru the ciaa in football only to lose in the playoffs like all other hbcu's do. not much different that the fcs. how much did central gain from going undefeated in the ciaa only to lose in the first round of the playoffs? central has also won a d2 national championship in basketball just like barton college did. but how much national prestige did either school earn from those accomplishments? very little in my opinion. so we go down to d2 and beat up on schools that are 1/4 our size. our fans get to go to fabulous football facilities at a raleigh high school to play the likes of st. aug and/or shaw. i can't see getting excited to make a 4 hour drive south for that atmosphere. a&t is an elite hbcu, we belong on the same level as the other elite hbcu's. sure, maybe we won't win a national championship any time soon at the d1 level but hail, we've never won a national championship when we were d2 either. and if we did, the only folks who'd care would be alumni and the "local" community. i'm okay with being d1. its not impossible for us to win an fcs championship, famu did it. i'd rather have the prestige of d1 while showing progress towards national competitiveness than degrade our athletics and profile by dropping down to d2...
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Post by aggiejazz on Dec 10, 2008 14:18:19 GMT -5
[ i'm okay with being d1. its not impossible for us to win an fcs championship, famu did it. i'd rather have the prestige of d1 while showing progress towards national competitiveness than degrade our athletics and profile by dropping down to d2... FAMU won less than a decade after full desegregation in the south. HBCUs have yet to get beyond the first round since 1999. Have you noticed that HBCUs' administration never lay out the full facts about their athletic programs' budget? Have your AD had a public meeting and stated "the basketball budget is this X amount of money and it comes from these sources in this Y amount". HBCU fans are delusional about what their favorite HBCU sport program can achieve on a national level. You can't win national titles or go near a national title with below average-to-very low financial support. BTW, Maryland Eastern Shore got a national title last year in one of the cheapest sports you can fund, Bowling. It was the cheapest sport to fund on a national level and they did just that. A&T had a very good shot at it and dropped the ball four years ago.
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Maxell
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Post by Maxell on Dec 10, 2008 19:21:57 GMT -5
without knowing where and how much of our resources are currently allocated to other programs, i can't say we should shift resources to basketball. however, i would agree that we should "create" or raise more revenue for both football and basketball. i specify those two sports because they generate more revenue than all the others. but more money alone doesn't automatically equal more wins. more money must be complemented by competent efficient coaches and athletics administrators. there must be checks and balances in place to assure the funds are spent appropriately and wisely. if we can do that, i'm all for it... Wow, 2 for 2 where I've got to agree wholeheartedly. For A&T, I'm a basketball guy but I'd have to say that our school and the athletic department would be better served if we could get the football program off the floor. Therefore, I don't know about focusing more funds on the basketball program. If our guys were progressing as well as the ladies were, it might be a different story. Unfortunately, our administrators have proven to be inept when it comes to the proper distribution of funds and I'm just not that confident that everything would go the way that it should. I definitely would support some rehabilitation project to Corbett though. OK. How much money would it take to build a basketball team that could get to the Sweet 16 every 2-3 years? I would rather use a version of the Davidson College model. They have intentionally decided to focus on basketball. Their football budget is one third of ours and their basketball budget is twice ours. They spend $2.6 million on Men's and Women's basketball we spend $1.4 million. (FYI: Most top schools in the MEAC spend about the same amount for basketball except Del St who spends twice as much as everyone else) Davidson football and basketball break even as far revenue vs Expenses goes. For us, football is $800,000 in the red (Fobbs) and basketball is $650,000 in the red ($500,000 is WBB). Eaves is holding his own as far as revenue is concerned. The red is now covered by student fees and other university funds. I think another half million $$ per year into men's basketball gets us consistent conference championships and into March madness. That money gets us better coaching staff and recruiting flexibility and a Corbett upgrade bond project. Putting 25,000 (avg +5000/game for five games)butts back in the seats next year for football for no other reason than curiosity about the new coach will generate a half million. I love football but basketball is the key. We need to be good in football but excellent in basketball. 8-3 and 9-2 seasons will serve Aggieland well in football but 26-5 and 28-3 basketball seasons will change A&T forever from a national recognition standpoint. March Madness is the name of the game. Sweet 16 appearance means more than a FCS championship. We went nine straight years in the 80's. We would be a different school had we gone deep half of those times. UNC-Gs president understands this. BTW, UNC-G was DIII when we were making NCAAs (one and done). We have the money. We need to move some of it around. Not all, just some.
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Post by aahhbigboy on Dec 10, 2008 21:27:35 GMT -5
I mean, all that sounds good.......but use Del State as a model. They spend more than everybody. They've upgraded their facility. Their coach is well paid and so are their assistants (partly because there are only 2 state schools), and what has it gotten them? Yes, their coach is better and yes they've done a whole lot more winning than us, but they haven't so much as made it past the play-in game. Look at their recruits. They are not bringing in obviously better talent than everyone else like Bozeman is. In basketball, competence is more valuable than just throwing money around......especially at a school where people are being audited for the misuse of funds.
Then, there is the whole HBCU stigma. A "Curry" wouldn't even consider it. It's the mentaility that "If it's black, it's probably wack." I deal with it all the time. There is a reason why you don't consistently see an HBCU team make a splash in the tourney. Fang did it when they almost beat SC and HU did it whent they beat Iowa state and almost got Texas, but then you never heard from them again.
It's a reason for that and the lack of money isn't ALL of the reason why. It's like everything in life, money isn't everything and it can destroy you just as quickly as it can help you!
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Post by captaggie on Dec 10, 2008 21:43:15 GMT -5
"They have intentionally decided to focus on basketball."
Money aside, that's an important statement. All of their key stakeholders (Primary - BOT, President, AD. Secondary - Alumns, Boosters, etc.) concur on this direction. UNCG's president expressed the same executive concurrence in her statement about G's bball/athletic program. To the best of my knowledge, we've never had a public statement of strategic athletic concurrence or a comprehensive plan. Appears our executives are satisfied as long as our students' finance the dept and teams are on the field.
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Maxell
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Post by Maxell on Dec 10, 2008 22:53:00 GMT -5
aahhbigboy, I get your point but I wouldn't use Del St as a model for anything. Look at their last President Sessoms(sp). They say he thought athletics was more important than anything else on campus. Look where that got him. The assumption here is that we have good leadership. Good leadership doesn't just set "getting in" tournament as the program goal. I give Wheels and Battle the benefit of the doubt. Money would not have helped the Todd/Hackley combo. As far as the stigma goes, just don't be wack. Be on your game. Wack means not on TV, Wack means operating with old technology, Wack means not having a modern facility, Wack means traveling more than 4 hours by bus, Wack means unorganized and unprepared, Wack means nobody knows who you are, Wack means not going to NCAAs to WIN. Model your external image like those that are the best at it while you continue to work on your substance. Focus on it. Don't half azz it. Example: Money allows you to have a solid professional marketing program that understands your target audience and gives them what they want. Money allows you to have a website that has a ticker and updated everyday and offer webcasts,etc. Money allows you to play big games in the coliseum if you want to. Money allows you to find a way to get a few games a year on local TV. Money allows you do more due dilligence on recruits (near and far) and stay in contact with them. As I type this I realize this: TV exposure is a game changer, period. I wouldn't care if it was an obsure cable channel in NC. If you have a professional production with solid announcers, solid marketing that is broadcasted in the region against solid opponents and you WIN, that gets you into the game. If folks in the region could see the atmosphere at Corbett every week or two, they would want to be a part of it. Story: I've told this one before. I was at a health food store in Colorado with my A&T jacket on. As I was checking out, the geeky young kid said to me, "North Carolina A&T Aggies, right?". I said yes and asked him how he knew because my jacket only "A&T" on it. He said he saw the basketball team play New Mexico State on TV the prior year and remembered because both teams were Aggies. Exposure. All of that takes money (and good leadership). I still think we can change the landscape by moving the money we have around a little. If we can't be who we are(black folk) and still play "the game" then we need to do like DOOMS suggests, stop pretending. Basketball is the closest money sport we have to contending. Even Eaves has been competitive the last few years with the DI non-conference opponents. Women's basketball is obviously ahead of Men's but we have to either put the pedal to the medal or get out of the car. We have to pick a program and ramp it up or go back to DII and be happy partying at the CIAA tournament and playing Fayetteville State on Thanksgiving on turf. I can get just as drunk at the CIAA as I can at the Final Four. Maybe moreso. To the best of my knowledge, we've never had a public statement of strategic athletic concurrence or a comprehensive plan. Appears our executives are satisfied as long as our students' finance the dept and teams are on the field. That's a mouthful, capt. It's been over 30 years of pretending in DI and its frustrating! Thanks for enduring another one of my rants.
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Post by DOOMS on Dec 11, 2008 7:04:31 GMT -5
No problem.
To me, d-1 is hbcu fool's gold. If we weren't in division I-AA or FCS or whatever we call it this year most of the people on this board would know almost nothing about the division. Our interest and knowledge is garnered only from the fact that we are in it. Nationally, d-2 gets more respect. Also, A&T is the same size (or smaller) than most of the top d-2 schools. I've often wondered why the d-2 schools don't publicize their champions more. But then App is about the only FCS school I've seen adverstise their success, and that's only in the state of NC (plus via the Michigan game). One loss to Richmond and they are off the national radar already.
In basketball we are probably 20 years between first round wins as a conference. We're probably a guaranteed play-in game in 10 of those years. All it takes is one untimely loss by the conference front-runner in the tournament.
Y'all are salivating over the women's team, but even if they go completely undefeated the rest of the regular season and conference tournament, you know and I know they won't get past the first round. We'll all talk about how great they did the first five minutes of the game like that's something to hang your hat on. Sad.
When I mentioned moving to d-2 a couple of years ago and was attacked like I just stole the baby's Christmas, AggieMike mentioned that as a d-1 team we were included on the NCAA football video game. Great for exposure, I guess, if the drunk pwc college kid says "let's play with some of the black teams."
In d-2 it costs less to be a success. We actually have a chance to outspend the true national players in d-2, not just the hbcu ones. Yes, money doesn't guarantee you'll win, but like I said before it dang sure makes it easier. If we spend, make the right hires, and PUBLICIZE our victories it would pay off.
The N&R pays no attention to us now. Would they pay attention if they had the d-2 national champs in football and basketball right in their own city? Of course. They'd forget every other school was in town if we could offer them that story.
The only reason most people have heard of Grambling is because Collie Nicholson, their s.i.d., wrote colorful stories about their football games and flooded every Colored paper in the nation with the stories. A legend was born.
If we took a portion of the money we'd save on football scholly's and hired a halfway competent team (as opposed to people fresh out of undergrad, people with multiple personalities, or people immediately looking to jump ship) to publicize our success, we would go a lot further and be a POSITIVE household name as opposed to "man if they stopped the game in the first five minutes we'd have won" or "I heard of y'all because you lost to the local d-1." Trust me, if we made the move, most every MEAC team north of South Carolina and outside of Hampton, Virginia would follow immediately.
Having typed all that, I know almost nobody agrees because there's a fake status we get from being d-1 (even though it's in name only).
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Aggie77
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Post by Aggie77 on Dec 11, 2008 8:31:00 GMT -5
I think a lot more agree than you think, it's just back to the critical mass thing again. One day we will measure our success not by status or other’s perceptions, but by excellence and spend our money accordingly.
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Post by aahhbigboy on Dec 11, 2008 9:42:53 GMT -5
No problem. To me, d-1 is hbcu fool's gold. If we weren't in division I-AA or FCS or whatever we call it this year most of the people on this board would know almost nothing about the division. Our interest and knowledge is garnered only from the fact that we are in it. Nationally, d-2 gets more respect. Also, A&T is the same size (or smaller) than most of the top d-2 schools. I've often wondered why the d-2 schools don't publicize their champions more. But then App is about the only FCS school I've seen adverstise their success, and that's only in the state of NC (plus via the Michigan game). One loss to Richmond and they are off the national radar already. In basketball we are probably 20 years between first round wins as a conference. We're probably a guaranteed play-in game in 10 of those years. All it takes is one untimely loss by the conference front-runner in the tournament. Y'all are salivating over the women's team, but even if they go completely undefeated the rest of the regular season and conference tournament, you know and I know they won't get past the first round. We'll all talk about how great they did the first five minutes of the game like that's something to hang your hat on. Sad. When I mentioned moving to d-2 a couple of years ago and was attacked like I just stole the baby's Christmas, AggieMike mentioned that as a d-1 team we were included on the NCAA football video game. Great for exposure, I guess, if the drunk pwc college kid says "let's play with some of the black teams." In d-2 it costs less to be a success. We actually have a chance to outspend the true national players in d-2, not just the hbcu ones. Yes, money doesn't guarantee you'll win, but like I said before it dang sure makes it easier. If we spend, make the right hires, and PUBLICIZE our victories it would pay off. The N&R pays no attention to us now. Would they pay attention if they had the d-2 national champs in football and basketball right in their own city? Of course. They'd forget every other school was in town if we could offer them that story. The only reason most people have heard of Grambling is because Collie Nicholson, their s.i.d., wrote colorful stories about their football games and flooded every Colored paper in the nation with the stories. A legend was born. If we took a portion of the money we'd save on football scholly's and hired a halfway competent team (as opposed to people fresh out of undergrad, people with multiple personalities, or people immediately looking to jump ship) to publicize our success, we would go a lot further and be a POSITIVE household name as opposed to "man if they stopped the game in the first five minutes we'd have won" or "I heard of y'all because you lost to the local d-1." Trust me, if we made the move, most every MEAC team north of South Carolina and outside of Hampton, Virginia would follow immediately. Having typed all that, I know almost nobody agrees because there's a fake status we get from being d-1 (even though it's in name only). Dang. You know, after giving this some rational thought with an open mind, I think you are dead on. Period. It would be taking a step back to take 5 steps forward. Good post.
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Post by DOOMS on Dec 11, 2008 10:25:39 GMT -5
Ahhhhbigs, the unfortunate part is that if we ever were to move down, I earnestly believe that the administration would immediately cut the funding so we would be in the same boat, just on the d-2 level. Instead of moving to ensure our success on a national level, they’d move to save coin. In theory I think it’s an excellent idea, but in practice I just don’t think it would happen. The mentality of the average hbcu is to move up. Look at Central and Winston (and every other hbcu except about three of them for that matter). They have zero business in division I. But here they are. And for what? Central won a d-2 national championship in 1989. Did they even publicize it?!? Man that should be plastered all over campus. When you are on 85 and 40 there should still be billboards that say Durham, home of the 1989 division II national champions with an uglyass burgundy buzzard behind it. The second you hit the state of NC there are billboards proclaiming App State. There are also billboards for Fayetteville State, Central, and everybodyelse. But only one catches your attention and whether right or wrong it has nothing to do with academics.
Ultimately I believe if we did it and did it properly a move to d-2 would work very well because people like winners. That doesn’t change just because you won at level a versus level b. But I also believe we wouldn’t do it and even if we did we wouldn’t do it properly at all. Basically, any school that fires successful coaches, hires bad ones to replace them, and doesn’t raise their athletic’s budget for six years straight really doesn’t possess the mentality to make moves that work.
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