tony
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Post by tony on Jul 5, 2021 21:15:51 GMT -5
First off, this post is not about bashing particular schools or directors, so I'm leaving out names to protect the guilty lol.
There's a predominantly black middle school in my area. Their band has about 16 trumpets, 18 saxes, 12 clarinets, 8 flutes, 4 trombones, 1 F horn, 2 baritones, and 1 tuba. It's been like this for at least the last 4 years, and probably a lot longer than that. Take that same group of kids 7 years later, repeated all over the district and you've got a horribly unbalanced college band. Borderline useless for recruiting. How can we fix that?
There's a high school band in my area. An email went out to returning band members saying band camp is starting soon. That, and a personal invite from someone who I know is the ONLY mention I've heard of band camp, or the process of joining the band. The school is a decent size, but band size looks about what you'd expect based on only that communication.
Neither director is associated with the BGMM, by the way.
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Post by ohsixrain on Jul 6, 2021 9:10:28 GMT -5
So, what are you suggesting, exactly?
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tony
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Post by tony on Jul 6, 2021 21:34:16 GMT -5
So, what are you suggesting, exactly? I'm suggesting we look at other things we can do to make recruiting easier - mainly building our base. We've talked scholarships to death. I believe they're helpful but overrated at best and at worst a distraction from real, correctable problems. I've got to give Dr. Ruff his props - he's very good about making recruiting trips, and keeping the band visible. Better than Dr. Hodge ever was in my opinion. But when you look at the difference between this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=USOcJmWf9Pgand this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo--iAKNV8sThere can't help but be a difference when they get to college. Dudley back in the day didn't just pull all those players out of thin air. They'd been active and engaged since 6th grade. The middle school band I was talking about before is terrible. Concert band performs poorly, and gets smaller every year from 6th to 8th grade (kids losing interest). Hardly anybody left by the time they get the high school. Pep band is terrible, and doesn't reflect the demographics of the school (20 white kids in an unbalanced ensemble playing a bad arrangement of the hey song to an all black crowd). I don't know the high school band that well but first impressions aren't good. Sounded way worse than they should have during an admittedly Covid affected year. Stealth band camp nobody knew about. Drum line was allowed to perform wearing shirts representing an entirely different school. Announcer said where they were from, crowd failed to notice and was cheering the school written on their shirts. Don't get me started!!!!!! None of these problems have anything to do with money, support of the arts, millennial softness (unless we're talking about staff), or any of the other excuses that are typically brought up when we talk about poor performances from our ensembles. How can we build better bands at the middle and high school level so we'll have more to work with by the time they hit college?
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Post by aggie2039 on Jul 7, 2021 6:44:51 GMT -5
What mid-Atlantic HBCU has a large band? Maybe the supply is low since there are so many HBCUs in NC🤷🏾♂️
Additionally, why include Dudley in this post? A&Ts job isn’t to recruit students for dudleys band
Maybe being in the band isn’t cool anymore and kids don’t want to join in high school 🤷🏾♂️
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Post by ohsixrain on Jul 7, 2021 8:13:28 GMT -5
I think A&T has no choice but to control what they can control and that's their own recruiting. If the players aren't across the street, go across town; if they aren't across town, go across the state; etc. Now, I have to give props here, I've seen Ron Rogers take over the drum section and literally recruit for the section to the point where it began to recruit itself. He had/has vision and is able to think bigger than what most can see. That's why the band never has a problem recruiting drummers from year to year. Now, there is no reason why the band as a whole can't use the same blueprint and to recruit brass or whatever the case may be. You cannot sit back expect kids to just sign up, you have to be proactive.
Secondly, recruiting is a skill, if you know you have someone on staff that's exceptional at that particular skill then, you tap into it and utilize it. So, long story short, A&T has the right people on the bus as far as staff but, the question is, "Are they in the correct seat on that bus?"
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tony
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Post by tony on Jul 7, 2021 11:00:32 GMT -5
What mid-Atlantic HBCU has a large band? Maybe the supply is low since there are so many HBCUs in NC🤷🏾♂️ Additionally, why include Dudley in this post? A&Ts job isn’t to recruit students for dudleys band Maybe being in the band isn’t cool anymore and kids don’t want to join in high school 🤷🏾♂️ There's a bigger picture that's not being acknowledged. Someone on another post was downing A&T because we don't offer some programs, including a school of music. That person was dead wrong - it's been there for decades: www.ncat.edu/cahss/departments/visual-and-performing-arts/music-program/bs-secondary-education-music.phpFeeder systems are a thing for a reason. Southern is on top of their game, and look at one of their feeder schools: www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_t8XnJ3tLMSt. Aug has been that way for decades. FAMU is a shell of their former self. Compare Miami Central back in the day: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXB3sKWz9Ugto now: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS43LiIlg5UI can't find any old clips of FAMU DRS High school, but they used to be Miami Central level. Look at now: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDquPJq9LY&t=210sFAMU hasn't completely fallen off to the same level - their overall program has a lot to do with that, and so do the Atlanta high schools that are still doing well. But that's my point - BOTH are factors, and ignoring or giving up on half is throwing away a lot of room for improvement. Saying kids don't want to join in high schools is totally missing the point - high school is TOO LATE. Saying it's no longer cool to be in band also misses the point, when you have lots of middle schools with 30 or 40 band kids in each grade. Keep even half of them and with 2 or 3 middle schools feeding into one high school you easily have a 100 - 200 piece high school band. Middle school band is only an hour a day, during school. XBOX or Facebook aren't excuses, because they aren't options during that hour. Somewhere along the way those kids are losing interest, and as someone who loved middle school band, based on what I'm seeing now up close, I can't blame them one bit. They're also not being taught, which shows in the high school bands that they turn into. And also makes it harder to work with them when they get to college. Could we place more of our music education grads in local schools? I dunno. Could we get more of them in middle schools? I know a bunch of A&T Alumni teaching high school, very few teaching middle school. Not sure. Could we have more of our music ed students doing student teaching as unpaid assistants in local schools? If they leave a good impression it opens a lot of job opportunities in the future, and also gives us a lot bigger pool to recruit from. I don't know, but it's definitely worth the discussion.
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tony
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Post by tony on Jul 7, 2021 11:22:48 GMT -5
I think A&T has no choice but to control what they can control and that's their own recruiting. If the players aren't across the street, go across town; if they aren't across town, go across the state; etc. Now, I have to give props here, I've seen Ron Rogers take over the drum section and literally recruit for the section to the point where it began to recruit itself. He had/has vision and is able to think bigger than what most can see. That's why the band never has a problem recruiting drummers from year to year. Now, there is no reason why the band as a whole can't use the same blueprint and to recruit brass or whatever the case may be. You cannot sit back expect kids to just sign up, you have to be proactive. Secondly, recruiting is a skill, if you know you have someone on staff that's exceptional at that particular skill then, you tap into it and utilize it. So, long story short, A&T has the right people on the bus as far as staff but, the question is, "Are they in the correct seat on that bus?" The drum section is a different story. The section used to be small because Dr. Hodge wanted it that way. They had tryouts, and cut down to the size Doc wanted. Dr. Ruff lets Ron keep a bigger section. Don't get me wrong - he's doing a great job, been doing that since before he was at A&T. But there's a very big reason the band can't use the same blueprint. There are a million good www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEeRrfpOCV016 piece www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9tC0bnehuwhigh school www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0zlGzToHQdrum lines www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5u-3OiuMtIhe has to recruit from. No problem turning away 30 kids and still having a big group of good percussionists. Horn players are a different story. Most of the high school bands out there are small and bad for no good reason, leaving the 9 in state HBCUs fighting over scraps. Yes, one option is to recruit wider, which we do pretty well. But the other option is to grow better local bands. We have a school of education for a reason - our current head arranger is a product. Can we turn that on the local schools?
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Post by ohsixrain on Jul 7, 2021 16:46:33 GMT -5
I don't know what the answer to your problem then because, you talk about a collective community issue with getting kids involved with extra curricular activities. That begins with parents that are interested, then teachers and administrators. I hear your cry but, the solution to the problems you mention don't happen overnight especially not in time for the BOTB at the end of August.
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919aggie
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Post by 919aggie on Jul 7, 2021 17:01:08 GMT -5
I remember my high school band usually hovered around about 100 members. The recession came and they have probably been around 20 members since.
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Post by aggie2039 on Jul 7, 2021 17:03:34 GMT -5
Band isn’t cool in high school
There are how many HBCUs in NC? A lot
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Post by marchingband1969 on Jul 7, 2021 19:30:36 GMT -5
Sure high school and junior high school band participation is down. Why? Damn if I know! But there are enough quality high school band students out there. A lot of them are playing in second rate bands in the ACC, Big South,, CIAA, and MEAC. And a lot of thise talented musicians are willing to bring their talents to the BGMM and play for free. But to get some talented musicians, it's going to take more than a fancy band uniform and recruiting chatter from a band director. As we use to say when I was in school..." Money talks and BS walks?"
The BGMM absolutely needs more scholarship money! You'd be amazed what an extra $500 to $1000 would mean to a band member. Also needs to allow out of state band recruits to only pay instate tuition.
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tony
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Posts: 153
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Post by tony on Jul 7, 2021 21:20:18 GMT -5
I don't know what the answer to your problem then because, you talk about a collective community issue with getting kids involved with extra curricular activities. That begins with parents that are interested, then teachers and administrators. I hear your cry but, the solution to the problems you mention don't happen overnight especially not in time for the BOTB at the end of August. August is probably the last thing on my mind. The script for August is pretty much set, and no amount of planning or suggestions at this point is doing anything to change it. Long term is exactly what I'm getting at - 1 to 10 years out and beyond. It definitely does depend on teachers and administration - that's where I'm hoping our staff could initiate something - maybe reaching out and offering help. I don't think parents are as big a factor as as some make them out to be. The reason is the kids butts are already in the seats at the middle school level - numbers are usually fine there. Once the kids are enrolled, it's up to the director to work with them and motivate them to stay. Band may not be cool in NC high schools. It's also true that a lot of the NC high school programs aren't good. That just might have a lot to do with it. I wouldn't have wanted to play for any of the other NC college bands, so I can see where they could be coming from. Ceasar spent a couple of years at JCSU and turned them from the dirty thirty into a legit Hodge style band. He did the same at WSSU, and both fell apart immediately after he left. Some director from Howard - don't know his name - remade Bowie St the same way. Bonds did it at Del State. Thomas did it at Hampton. Reid did it at NCCU. Millsap did it at Dudley. Hoover did it at Shaw Jr High. None of those turnarounds had anything to do with parents, scholarships, or resources. It was ALL the directors, and the administration that got them there. A&T may not be graduating band directors fast enough to make a big dent in any of the local school systems. But I'm just wondering is there more we could do, even if we was just providing part time assistants or something. Or strategically placing the few graduates we do have when opportunities open up. Near term, A&T's going to be fine. We've had about 150 horns since forever, and other than wanting more from the bones (which CAN be done immediately) I'm not looking for or expecting big changes. But looking at some of the horrible middle / high school programs out there, and seeing first hand the difference a good staff can make, and how many more potential recruits that could create, I just wish we could expand our influence.
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Post by marchingband1969 on Jul 8, 2021 9:09:54 GMT -5
Let me start by saying A&T has been very successful (and a little lucky) over the years to pick Band Directors that could continue the marching band legacy created by Walter F. Carlson in the 1940s through 1960s. They have had the drive and talent to keep the A&T Marching Band from being an embarrassment to the alumni and students. If you doubt what I'm saying, look at some of the crap marching bands NCCU and Howard have had over the past 10 or 20 years.
As I have to keep reminding my alumni friends, A&T is a STEM university not a fine arts university! So our funding and resources go to STEM programs first. Over the decades our head band directors have had to find ways to recruit and entice those non fine arts students to join the band. And once they are in the band, they have to convince them to practice 3 to 4 hours every evening just to entertain fans on Saturday. And our directors have done a fantastic job in doing that without a large funding base and only a handful of music majors.
Before we branch out and try to "fix" the junior and senior high school band programs, we need to first start at home... and fix our program. We need to provide our band a first rate band facility. Folks, our band program has been operating out of an auto parts store and rundown warehouse for 15 or 20 years! It's hard to recruit talented musicians when all you have to show them is a gravel parking lot and a hot warehouse! Now I know there are "plans" for a new band facility but it ain't here now! And the one they are planning to build "someday" is already 30 years late! As supporters of the athletic programs, folks on Blue Death Valley understand how important facilities are in recruiting talented athletes. Well, the BGMM's facilities are getto quality and have been for decades!
Next, we need more scholarships. I'm not talking about full rides, just $500 to $1000 for every band student. That would go a long way to encourage them to join and stay in the band. Today we have about 130 band students... at $500 per students that would be an additional $65,000 per semester!
And finally, we need a decent practice field with lights! For the past decade the band has practiced in the parking lot behind the stadium. A muddy, gravel pit, with poor lighting! It's a wonder the band doesn't have more twisted ankles practicing on that field.
A&T has been very lucky to have great marching bands in spite of our lack of facilities, scholarships and resources. If we don't fix these issues, one day our luck may run out. That will be a sad day for our alumni, students and fans.
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Post by ohsixrain on Jul 8, 2021 9:39:14 GMT -5
I don't know what the answer to your problem then because, you talk about a collective community issue with getting kids involved with extra curricular activities. That begins with parents that are interested, then teachers and administrators. I hear your cry but, the solution to the problems you mention don't happen overnight especially not in time for the BOTB at the end of August. August is probably the last thing on my mind. The script for August is pretty much set, and no amount of planning or suggestions at this point is doing anything to change it. Long term is exactly what I'm getting at - 1 to 10 years out and beyond. It definitely does depend on teachers and administration - that's where I'm hoping our staff could initiate something - maybe reaching out and offering help. I don't think parents are as big a factor as as some make them out to be. The reason is the kids butts are already in the seats at the middle school level - numbers are usually fine there. Once the kids are enrolled, it's up to the director to work with them and motivate them to stay. Band may not be cool in NC high schools. It's also true that a lot of the NC high school programs aren't good. That just might have a lot to do with it. I wouldn't have wanted to play for any of the other NC college bands, so I can see where they could be coming from. Ceasar spent a couple of years at JCSU and turned them from the dirty thirty into a legit Hodge style band. He did the same at WSSU, and both fell apart immediately after he left. Some director from Howard - don't know his name - remade Bowie St the same way. Bonds did it at Del State. Thomas did it at Hampton. Reid did it at NCCU. Millsap did it at Dudley. Hoover did it at Shaw Jr High. None of those turnarounds had anything to do with parents, scholarships, or resources. It was ALL the directors, and the administration that got them there. A&T may not be graduating band directors fast enough to make a big dent in any of the local school systems. But I'm just wondering is there more we could do, even if we was just providing part time assistants or something. Or strategically placing the few graduates we do have when opportunities open up. Near term, A&T's going to be fine. We've had about 150 horns since forever, and other than wanting more from the bones (which CAN be done immediately) I'm not looking for or expecting big changes. But looking at some of the horrible middle / high school programs out there, and seeing first hand the difference a good staff can make, and how many more potential recruits that could create, I just wish we could expand our influence. I hear what you are saying but, I think the start should begin on A&T's campus. We have the largest HBCU enrollment and I am willing to bet that if you were to poll the undergraduate student body did they play in the band in high school; I believe at least 300+ students would say "Yes." So now, that opens another can of worms, why aren't they interested in marching in the band at the school they currently attend. As much as we try and divert from it but, it will always come back around to resources. If we don't have resources to offer then unfortunately, we are in a round-robin discussion. It will always come back to that. I look at schools whose enrollment isn't even half as ours and their bands are twice our size: Talladega College: 1,230 enrollment Bethune Cookman: 2,779 enrollment We sit at roughly 12K students of that at least 9K are undergraduate students. Out of those 9K students, I'm sure 3% play an instrument of some kind. So, how do the band directors attract that 3% is the magical question. And without resources, I cannot give you a practical answer.
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Post by aggie2039 on Jul 8, 2021 10:08:36 GMT -5
Let me start by saying A&T has been very successful (and a little lucky) over the years to pick Band Directors that could continue the marching band legacy created by Walter F. Carlson in the 1940s through 1960s. They have had the drive and talent to keep the A&T Marching Band from being an embarrassment to the alumni and students. If you doubt what I'm saying, look at some of the crap marching bands NCCU and Howard have had over the past 10 or 20 years. As I have to keep reminding my alumni friends, A&T is a STEM university not a fine arts university! So our funding and resources go to STEM programs first. Over the decades our head band directors have had to find ways to recruit and entice those non fine arts students to join the band. And once they are in the band, they have to convince them to practice 3 to 4 hours every evening just to entertain fans on Saturday. And our directors have done a fantastic job in doing that without a large funding base and only a handful of music majors. Before we branch out and try to "fix" the junior and senior high school band programs, we need to first start at home... and fix our program. We need to provide our band a first rate band facility. Folks, our band program has been operating out of an auto parts store and rundown warehouse for 15 or 20 years! It's hard to recruit talented musicians when all you have to show them is a gravel parking lot and a hot warehouse! Now I know there are "plans" for a new band facility but it ain't here now! And the one they are planning to build "someday" is already 30 years late! As supporters of the athletic programs, folks on Blue Death Valley understand how important facilities are in recruiting talented athletes. Well, the BGMM's facilities are getto quality and have been for decades! Next, we need more scholarships. I'm not talking about full rides, just $500 to $1000 for every band student. That would go a long way to encourage them to join and stay in the band. Today we have about 130 band students... at $500 per students that would be an additional $65,000 per semester! And finally, we need a decent practice field with lights! For the past decade the band has practiced in the parking lot behind the stadium. A muddy, gravel pit, with poor lighting! It's a wonder the band doesn't have more twisted ankles practicing on that field. A&T has been very lucky to have great marching bands in spite of our lack of facilities, scholarships and resources. If we don't fix these issues, one day our luck may run out. That will be a sad day for our alumni, students and fans. So all the band alums combined can’t raise that much annually?
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