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Post by DOOMS on Dec 22, 2008 13:55:56 GMT -5
So what's the actual problem? Or is there just one problem?
My theory is that almost every problem one brings up can be attributed to budgetary constraints. My theory is that if hbcus as a whole outspent the pwc institutions we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
My theory regarding Hampton's troubles despite a higher budget and better players has to do with the level of competition that prepared them for the playoff games. Playing historically underfunded MEAC teams did not prepare them for playing teams that were used to playing against better-funded programs.
Money might be an excuse, but to me it also appears to be the base reason.
You want better linemen? Can you pepper them with recruiting letters and constant contact and then offer them a full ride without having to tape grants together? Can you provide them tutors to keep them around? Can you provide them top coaching to maximize their potential? Are they playing against other talented linemen from well-coached and well-funded programs week in and week out? Do you have enough depth so that if one or more fall by the wayside there will not be much drop off? What are you feeding them? Who's performing their strength and conditioning? Who's paying for all that and how much are they paying? If your immediate area is glutted with competition (like NC for example) can you afford to go elsewhere and regularly scout a kid?
I'm sure there are programs out there that have overcome all this with a smaller budget. Well, on second thought I'm not so sure. That's why I asked when was the last time a team got past the first round of the playoffs without being in the top 25 in spending? There's obviously some correlation there.
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Post by Maxell on Dec 22, 2008 14:09:09 GMT -5
I think the way you get better is by building a stronger conference. that means:
1) Teams must spend competitive amounts on football 2) Teams must play better competition
The alternative: A&T and SCSU should convince the Southern Conference that it's time to break the grip of the confederacy in the spirit of change and add them for football. Play OOC games against old MEAC foes such as NCCU, WSSU, FAMU and (Howard or NSU). Remain in the MEAC for all other sports. It would immediately upgrade both competition and visibility. There are a number of rivalries already built in for both schools (A&T vs App St., A&T vs Elon, SCSU vs Wofford, SCSU vs Furman, SCSU vs Citidel). We could certainly do better than Chattanooga and Western Carolina
Battle and SCSU President should be developing a plan as we speak.
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Post by captaggie on Dec 22, 2008 14:11:38 GMT -5
I really like that Maxell!
Get the right guy in here and we would be ready in 4 years. Start low level discussions now. Oh who am I foolin'?
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Post by Maxell on Dec 22, 2008 14:23:57 GMT -5
Who is the President-Elect of the United States again? Anything is possible if you work it.
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Post by captaggie on Dec 22, 2008 14:38:51 GMT -5
You and I are on the same page. My confidence is low in our leaders (excluding the AD) having a vision and bringing it into reality, especailly when it comes to sports.
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Post by DOOMS on Dec 22, 2008 14:45:17 GMT -5
Y’all know I’m all for moving to d-2 due to the decreased financial burden. In the past I’ve also felt that the meac would be best served by cutting the Florida teams, Del State, and maybe SC State loose and demanding that all conference football teams have a minimum budgetary amount equal to the average of the reported spending of the previous years’ playoff participants. The meac is one of the most geographically spread fcs conferences (outside of the western ones) and that plays a factor in budgets. It costs money to go to Dover; the place is practically inaccessible. It also costs money to get to Orangeburg, Daytona, and Tallahassee.
Of course I doubt any conference school would agree to that kind of spending. We also all know that the powers that be wouldn’t know what to do with the money. They’d just increase the coach’s salary (like we seem to be addicted to).
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Post by Maxell on Dec 22, 2008 14:54:02 GMT -5
I just gave them the vision. They just have to decide whether or not we want to break out of old thinking. Joining the Southern Conference would be about much more than sports. It could also be about joint academic ventures with whole new set of schools combining liberal arts with science and technology. The possibilities are endless. The challenge is carving out an upside for the other Southern Conference schools that they would embrace. If Wheels can rekindle the Elon agreement and re-form a relationship with App St. and SCSU can get Wofford on board, then the proposal can be made with a group of member schools already in agreement.
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Post by Maxell on Dec 22, 2008 14:58:40 GMT -5
Y’all know I’m all for moving to d-2 due to the decreased financial burden. In the past I’ve also felt that the meac would be best served by cutting the Florida teams, Del State, and maybe SC State loose and demanding that all conference football teams have a minimum budgetary amount equal to the average of the reported spending of the previous years’ playoff participants. The meac is one of the most geographically spread fcs conferences (outside of the western ones) and that plays a factor in budgets. It costs money to go to Dover; the place is practically inaccessible. It also costs money to get to Orangeburg, Daytona, and Tallahassee. Of course I doubt any conference school would agree to that kind of spending. We also all know that the powers that be wouldn’t know what to do with the money. They’d just increase the coach’s salary (like we seem to be addicted to). A&T and SCSU in the Southern Conference reduces travel expenses in half. Use that money to upgrade the programs.
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Post by DOOMS on Dec 22, 2008 15:06:06 GMT -5
Easily. The problem is I just don't see the SC going for it. I think SC State has explored it in the past. Hampton openly made overtures to the A-10. To date, pwcs have been reluctant to entertain adding us to their conferences.
What do we bring to the table? You'd think a rabid fan base, but using Tennessee State as a model I'm not sure that's the case. We fill up Elon's stadium when we go there, just as SC State's fans fill up Wofford's. But after about two or three years would that still be the case? And we already know their fans aren't coming to A&T (or SC State).
Are we going to drastically increase the budget and end the racially based hiring and recruiting practices? Would the alumni at large go for it? If they don't (and they won't) will that spell drastically reduced ticket revenue? The sad thing is I don't think the alumni are married to being a member of the meac by any means. I do think they are married to seeing two good bands at halftime.
Max, it reads well on the internets but I'd have serious doubts. Our best bet ws probably the Big South. They'd have jumped at the chance to add us and their teams are genuinely interested in increasing their competitiveness. You could also lure about three or so meac schools into joining, thereby offsetting some of the losses.
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Post by treese on Dec 22, 2008 15:20:18 GMT -5
Easily. The problem is I just don't see the SC going for it. I think SC State has explored it in the past. Hampton openly made overtures to the A-10. To date, pwcs have been reluctant to entertain adding us to their conferences. What do we bring to the table? You'd think a rabid fan base, but using Tennessee State as a model I'm not sure that's the case. We fill up Elon's stadium when we go there, just as SC State's fans fill up Wofford's. But after about two or three years would that still be the case? And we already know their fans aren't coming to A&T (or SC State). Are we going to drastically increase the budget and end the racially based hiring and recruiting practices? Would the alumni at large go for it? If they don't (and they won't) will that spell drastically reduced ticket revenue? The sad thing is I don't think the alumni are married to being a member of the meac by any means. I do think they are married to seeing two good bands at halftime. Max, it reads well on the internets but I'd have serious doubts. Our best bet ws probably the Big South. They'd have jumped at the chance to add us and their teams are genuinely interested in increasing their competitiveness. You could also lure about three or so meac schools into joining, thereby offsetting some of the losses. Dooms...something like this: Big South >> Charleston Southern >> Coastal Carolina >> Gardner-Webb >> Liberty >> Stony Brook >> Virginia Military >>NC A&T~~~SC STATE ...maybe FAMU & BCC or HAMPTON & NSU
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Post by Maxell on Dec 22, 2008 15:44:31 GMT -5
I thought about the Big South but it doesn't fit the competition criteria necessary to drastically improve the program. Talk of the Big South and other MEAC schools just cloud the issue. Football only just A&T and SCSU
As far as home games go, a WINNING TEAM can get 12,000 butts in the seats no matter who we play.
OK Let's look at mock schedule. Use Game 2 to rotate in other MEAC schools each year (Howard, FAMU, Hampton).
Game 1 at WSSU (Band) Game 2 Norfolk (Band) ... 15,000 Game 3 vs NCCU (Band) ... 25,000 Game 4 at App St Game 5 Elon ... 15,000 Game 6 Western Ca (Homecoming) ... 25,000 Game 7 at Wofford Game 8 at Samford Game 9 SCSU (Band) ... 12,000 Game 10 at Georgia So Game 11 Furman ... 12,000
As far as the TNSU comparison, their home attendance has been about the same as ours.
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Post by DOOMS on Dec 22, 2008 16:33:22 GMT -5
I like that (except for having to play Samford, I still have no idea how they got in). And winning does generally ensure booty in the seats, especially with that level of competition. The two things I think would be a problem would be ensuring that we properly fund the program to be competitive in that league (which means we would have to drastically increase expenditures to greatly outdo the competition's spending) and getting the Southern to even so much as sniff in our direction in the first place.
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Post by Maxell on Dec 22, 2008 16:36:01 GMT -5
That's what the chancellor/presidents have to do. We'd have to sniff in their direction. Every other year we could squeeze in a $500,000 money game (something we couldn't command from the MEAC)
I just thought of this. It would also increase the chances of more than one HBCU making the playoffs. You'd have the MEAC autobid and multiple bids coming out of the Southern Conference so it wouldn't be necessarily unusual to see FAMU and SCSU or Hampton and A&T in the playoffs.
Since we would still play MEAC basketball, it would tend make those rivalries more intense with Hampton/Howard/Morgan etc. because we may not have seen them during the football season. In one way the split conference model already exists in the Southern Conference with Davidson which plays FCS non-scholarship football in the Pioneer League but plays basketball in the Southern Conference.
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