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Post by DOOMS on Nov 2, 2023 11:11:33 GMT -5
Colgate had two years where they passed for seven tds IN A SEASON on Young’s watch as oc and qb coach. Not one, but two. They only managed over 400 ypg once in his tenure. They won in spite of his offenses, not because of them. He was let go after a 10-2 season. You don’t (well, I wouldn’t) hire an oc based off what the team accomplished in spite of his unit. What recruit looks at those stats and says “that’s the ‘explosive’ offense I’m trying to play under”? Whether you think he was capable or not, Barnette (the topic of this thread) has produced against the teams he was called to produce against at the division 1, 2, and 3 level. Barnette would not have us anywhere near this terrible on offense. With his worst play calls and games he’s looked better than our best this year. At times Barnette would struggle, but it would always get figured out by the midpoint of the year. As much as I loathed a good portion of his offense, he produced. And even with the losses we took on offense, he would’ve produced this year at a much greater rate than Young. I understand what your saying Dooms trust me I do . And I agree that his passing game numbers were not top 100th numbers hell top 120 lol. My view is the type of athletes that Colgate and programs like Colgate recruit..i.e Ivy League program. Most programs Ivy League programs do not Crack the Top 129 in D1 recruitment rankings and outside of the Creme de La Creme programs like Harvard, Princeton, Yale and sometimes Brown at the FCS level most are not in the top 10 or 20 . But Young Won games and scored points by what ever means he won games that all "I" care about. Teams like Colgate recruit for team and system Fit..i.e Run pass or both And then plugged that Talent into there system which makes it easier for and OC , because he doesn't have to really change a recruits natural instincts or tendencies and isn't removed that far from his comfort zone just add to it at this level . Also Time with talent is important! One spring practice does not give you a true gage of what system will really be the identity of your talent and what an OC wants to do and can do especially when most of that talent is inexperienced talent at your Skill positions . I'm not saying Young is a Good Bad or Great OC but I am saying let the season play out and give the man his shot to prove or not prove that he is up to the task . Also North and South Dakota are barely ranked in the top 10 in recruiting but yet they continue to dominate the FCS landscape. By recruiting the talent that fit. Cousin, you're kind of solidifying my points. We're dead last in total offense and passing offense. Again, Young wasn't the one winning those games. If he was he'd still be there after a 10-2 season. When we're recruiting kids what's the selling point that Young brings? "We'll eventually get to the level where we pass for seven tds in a season and we'll win games around what little he brings to the table as oc? Young was OC at Colgate from 2014-2018. Had only one offense that averaged over 28 points per game and only one that averaged over 400 yards per game. In 2018 they went 10-2 and his offense averaged 27 points and 344 yards per game with a whopping 7 td passes. The next year he was wr coach at Elon. In 2015 they went 9-5. 25 points per game, 11 passing tds, 388 yards per game. To be fair, both teams had a ton of rushing tds. But not enough to crack 28 points per game. The most td passes any of his teams had was 18. Two of his teams had 7 td passes over the course of the season. TWO. If that's not the definition of winning in spite of the OC... I don't see how that benefits us at all. Especially when we're now pulling up the rear in almost every offensive category. This probably puts us two years behind in our rebuild. |
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Post by crowntownaggie on Nov 2, 2023 11:13:31 GMT -5
Colgate had two years where they passed for seven tds IN A SEASON on Young’s watch as oc and qb coach. Not one, but two. They only managed over 400 ypg once in his tenure. They won in spite of his offenses, not because of them. He was let go after a 10-2 season. You don’t (well, I wouldn’t) hire an oc based off what the team accomplished in spite of his unit. What recruit looks at those stats and says “that’s the ‘explosive’ offense I’m trying to play under”? Whether you think he was capable or not, Barnette (the topic of this thread) has produced against the teams he was called to produce against at the division 1, 2, and 3 level. Barnette would not have us anywhere near this terrible on offense. With his worst play calls and games he’s looked better than our best this year. At times Barnette would struggle, but it would always get figured out by the midpoint of the year. As much as I loathed a good portion of his offense, he produced. And even with the losses we took on offense, he would’ve produced this year at a much greater rate than Young. Two down years out of 5 and left on a high note, he was offensive coordinator and scoring ~30PPG means something on that offense worked, they weren’t winning games by 14-7 score lines, they were winning 30 something to 20 something in his time as Colgate OC. The fact that they didn’t regress over 5 years the way Barnette guys did tells me the whole story. Barnette was a dud, I’m sure some of y’all may know him personally and that is fine, but it’s okay to admit when our friends/associates are not good at what they do. The regression of A&T offense under his watch, followed by his lackluster job so far at WSSU proves as much. |
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Post by DOOMS on Nov 2, 2023 11:24:36 GMT -5
Channeling my inner Drax... 1. How do you KNOW Barnette is not CAA OC material? 2. If the discussion ends there for you, then move on. If not, don't say it does. 3. Barnette MAY be a LITTLE bit better than Young? He's light years better. 4. How do you KNOW Barnette nor Young (Young isn't, obviously, but) is CAA OC material? What are people not getting with what I'm saying? Barnette did not win a big game vs quality competition in 2021 and 2022. In our 3 biggest FCS games in 2022, he mustered a grand total of 3 points in the 2nd half of all of these games. The Central game was in reach at halftime; the G-W (Big South championship game) was within reach at halftime....... ZERO POINTS IN THE 2ND HALF IN BOTH GAMES.If y'all want to highlight the exploits of our 2022 offense against the likes of South Carolina St, Bryant, Edward freakin Waters, Robert Morris, Norfolk State and Charleson Southern and somehow equate that to Barnette being ready for in's and out's of the CAA.....go right ahead. I ain't. Let's even go back to 2021: Y'all remember that Kennesaw St game in 2021.....it was undefeated A&T vs undefeated Kennessaw......how many points did our offense score in that game........the answer: ZEROY'all remember homecoming 2021 when we played a quality Monmouth team.........we lost 35-16.......how many point did our offense score in the 2nd half.....the answer: ZERODidn't we have more offensive talent in 2021 and 2022 than this year? Yet when it was time for these more offensively talented units to perform in meaningful games......Barnette repeatedly produced THUDSI'm a big believer in past behavior predicting future behavior. I can't have an OC underperforming in previous big games in conferences weaker than the one we're in now, thinking he's gonna miraculously turn into Kyle Shanahan in the CAA. I have given you FACT AFTER FACT AFTER FACT AFTER FACT........from which I have formulated my OPINION as why I believe Barnette IS NOT CAA material. It has nothing to do with the cologne he wears It has nothing to do with the car he drives It has nothing to do with where he lives In BIG/MEANINGFUL games in 2021 an 2022.....he produced PALTRY OFFENSIVE RESULTS that ended in us losing convincingly in all of those games.....and with MUCH BETTER TALENT than what Young has now. If you disagree with what I'm saying......COOL WITH ME. I'm not gonna cape for a man whose cape came off everytime the competition got tougher over the past 2 years..... Again....we can agree to disagree. That's a pretty good argument. Too much oversized font for my taste, but to each his own. Like I said, I'm not a Barnette superfan by any stretch of the imagination, but a) he's better than this guy we ended up with by a huge margin, and b) he tended to learn as the season went along. Did he learn at a clip I would have preferred? Nah. But no way has he ever been proven to be as bad as his replacement. Nor has his replacement proven to be as good as Barnette. |
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saabman
Official BDF member
Posts: 11,824
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Post by saabman on Nov 2, 2023 11:30:56 GMT -5
I don't know what Barnette could have done and basically I really get tired of seeing people going back in time . With this Broadway, Washington and Barnette Crap . No one knows what any of them could have done Because they are not here coaching, again they are not here coaching .
I have said this before an OC is only as good as the Talented athletes on hand . The same holds true for a QB that needs consistency from his receivers to catch the ball and receivers from there QB to be accurate with his throws, the line with their blocking giving the running backs , quarterbacks Lanes to run and the quarterback time to throw.
Go back and look at some of the games and count the dropped passes. My count was at about 150 to 200 yards pregame and that's not counting the inaccurate throws and interceptions . Bottom line for me it's the talent. And nor Broadway, Washington or Barnett can change that.
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Post by Bornthrilla on Nov 2, 2023 11:37:02 GMT -5
I have said this before an OC is only as good as the Talented athletes on hand You guys act like the OC is not actively involved in assembling the athletes around him. That is part of the job as OC in college football. It is called recruiting. Not being able to recruit and develop talented athletes means you are not doing your job well as an Offensive Coordinator. |
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Post by DOOMS on Nov 2, 2023 11:37:42 GMT -5
Colgate had two years where they passed for seven tds IN A SEASON on Young’s watch as oc and qb coach. Not one, but two. They only managed over 400 ypg once in his tenure. They won in spite of his offenses, not because of them. He was let go after a 10-2 season. You don’t (well, I wouldn’t) hire an oc based off what the team accomplished in spite of his unit. What recruit looks at those stats and says “that’s the ‘explosive’ offense I’m trying to play under”? Whether you think he was capable or not, Barnette (the topic of this thread) has produced against the teams he was called to produce against at the division 1, 2, and 3 level. Barnette would not have us anywhere near this terrible on offense. With his worst play calls and games he’s looked better than our best this year. At times Barnette would struggle, but it would always get figured out by the midpoint of the year. As much as I loathed a good portion of his offense, he produced. And even with the losses we took on offense, he would’ve produced this year at a much greater rate than Young. Two down years out of 5 and left on a high note, he was offensive coordinator and scoring ~30PPG means something on that offense worked, they weren’t winning games by 14-7 score lines, they were winning 30 something to 20 something in his time as Colgate OC. The fact that they didn’t regress over 5 years the way Barnette guys did tells me the whole story. Barnette was a dud, I’m sure some of y’all may know him personally and that is fine, but it’s okay to admit when our friends/associates are not good at what they do. The regression of A&T offense under his watch, followed by his lackluster job so far at WSSU proves as much. That's actually funny. Two down years out of five? You haven't looked at his stats at all. They were not winning 30 something to 20 something. Their 9-5 season they actually gave up more than they scored. He left "on a high note?" He was fired and ended up wr coach at Elon. How exactly is that a "high note?" His boss decided that yet another season of seven passing tds wasn't going to bring any qb or wr interest, so he let him go from his own alma mater. The fact that you stated they didn't regress over five years tells me the whole story. You didn't look. The team he had that scored 31 ppg went 5-5. He coordinated no other offense that got over 28 pg. I never met Barnette. I've never been overly impressed with the offenses he put on the field. But to flat out lie on the man or ignore his positives is a bit much for me. His "lackluster" job at WSSU is a massive improvement over what they did last year, and every year since at least 2019. Those are FACTS. Meanwhile, in Aggieland... Young is a dud, I'm sure you may know him personally and that is fine, but it's okay to admit when our friends/associates are not good at what they do. The incredible and embarrassing regression of A&T offense under his watch proves as much. Barnette is competent. I ain't gone lie, I'd probably be calling for his head this year were he still at T. But he would be getting us over 300 yards per game, and he's improved the output of his current team. Young is incapable of doing any better than he's doing now. I'm not going to hold that against him. His best position is probably wr coach and he ain't hire himself. But his history shows OC and QB coach are not his strong points and after years of experience at both he's not showing any competency at either. |
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Post by neighborhoodsuperstar on Nov 2, 2023 12:05:25 GMT -5
Just asking....if Barnette was our OC this year:
1) How many more games would we have won with the talent we have
2) What would our offense be ranked nationally (0-50 vs 51-100 vs 101-122)
Based upon past performances Barnette had against quality competition, I think we'd be 2-6 (I'm gonna give him the victory vs Hampton). I don't think we'd be 122nd, but I do think we'd be in the 101-122 range because he didn't produce eyepopping stats vs quality competition in 2021 and 2022.
And I'd surmise, like you said before Dooms, we'd be calling for his head too.
Barnette would be bad
Young is just God-awful bad
I don't want bad or God-awful bad OC's running the show....
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Post by Bornthrilla on Nov 2, 2023 12:13:37 GMT -5
I think we could have beaten Hampton, Elon and Richmond for sure if Barnette was coordinating the offense - and more importantly working with the QBs.
I think Kevin White would be in the running for CAA rookie of the year if Barnette was his QB coach.
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Post by DOOMS on Nov 2, 2023 12:16:17 GMT -5
Just asking....if Barnette was our OC this year: 1) How many more games would we have won with the talent we have 2) What would our offense be ranked nationally (0-50 vs 51-100 vs 101-122) Based upon past performances Barnette had against quality competition, I think we'd be 2-6 (I'm gonna give him the victory vs Hampton). I don't think we'd be 122nd, but I do think we'd be in the 101-122 range because he didn't produce eyepopping stats vs quality competition in 2021 and 2022. And I'd surmise, like you said before Dooms, we'd be calling for his head too. Barnette would be bad Young is just God-awful bad I don't want bad or God-awful bad OC's running the show.... I'm thinking one or two more games won based on continuity of offensive staff and familiarity with play calling and the players. As not great as Barnette was, when he got into a rhythm we really moved the ball. And when Wash forced him to take the air out of the ball and run it, we REALLY moved the ball. I don't believe for one second that we'd see this many drops, missed blocks, off passes, etc. under Barnette. The players aren't playing up to their potential. Honestly, they're playing like they don't like the oc and/or his play calls. Ultimately, we'd be a lot more competitive, have a larger time of possession, and have something to build on whether we kept him once the season was over or not. Now, we have absolutely nothing to build on beyond the promise of talent currently on the roster and the hope they stay (and somebody goes). I figure under Barnette we'd just scraping top 100 offensive ranking, like 90-100. He'd make sure we established the run, and worked with the pass. And likewise, I don't want bad or God-awful bad OC's running the show. But I'll take bad over the worst. |
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Post by crowntownaggie on Nov 2, 2023 12:20:41 GMT -5
So, you confirmed he was putting out ~30 ppg at Colgate (28 as you put it) and they were* scoring 20-30 rushing touchdowns and were clearly a run heavy offense. That same team has not scored more than 20 except for four times since he left (I have not been able to confirm he was fired but I don’t think you’re just making it up either). To all of what you’re saying his prior to stops detail his impact on both his direct position group and/or the offense as a whole, plus the numbers for Colgate show an offense that was clearly run-focused and they haven’t had that same success since his departure whereas we were struggling while Barnette was here.
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Post by DOOMS on Nov 2, 2023 12:47:06 GMT -5
So, you confirmed he was putting out ~30 ppg at Colgate (28 as you put it) and they were* scoring 20-30 rushing touchdowns and were clearly a run heavy offense. That same team has not scored more than 20 except for four times since he left (I have not been able to confirm he was fired but I don’t think you’re just making it up either). To all of what you’re saying his prior to stops detail his impact on both his direct position group and/or the offense as a whole, plus the numbers for Colgate show an offense that was clearly run-focused and they haven’t had that same success since his departure whereas we were struggling while Barnette was here. Young was OC at Colgate from 2014-2018. Had only one offense that averaged over 28 points per game and only one that averaged over 400 yards per game. In 2018 they went 10-2 and his offense averaged 27 points and 344 yards per game with a whopping 7 td passes. The next year he was wr coach at Elon. In 2015 they went 9-5. 25 points per game, 11 passing tds, 388 yards per game. To be fair, both teams had a ton of rushing tds. But not enough to crack 28 points per game. The most td passes any of his teams had was 18. Two of his teams had 7 td passes over the course of the season. TWO. This is your king?!? His best year was barely better than Barnette's worst year. With double the budget and resources, more coaches, a larger recruiting base, and a partridge in a pear tree. I don't have a clue what or why you're arguing on behalf of the worst offensive coordinator in the nation. |
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Post by crowntownaggie on Nov 2, 2023 13:15:05 GMT -5
So, you confirmed he was putting out ~30 ppg at Colgate (28 as you put it) and they were* scoring 20-30 rushing touchdowns and were clearly a run heavy offense. That same team has not scored more than 20 except for four times since he left (I have not been able to confirm he was fired but I don’t think you’re just making it up either). To all of what you’re saying his prior to stops detail his impact on both his direct position group and/or the offense as a whole, plus the numbers for Colgate show an offense that was clearly run-focused and they haven’t had that same success since his departure whereas we were struggling while Barnette was here. Young was OC at Colgate from 2014-2018. Had only one offense that averaged over 28 points per game and only one that averaged over 400 yards per game. In 2018 they went 10-2 and his offense averaged 27 points and 344 yards per game with a whopping 7 td passes. The next year he was wr coach at Elon. In 2015 they went 9-5. 25 points per game, 11 passing tds, 388 yards per game. To be fair, both teams had a ton of rushing tds. But not enough to crack 28 points per game. The most td passes any of his teams had was 18. Two of his teams had 7 td passes over the course of the season. TWO. This is your king? I’ve said near 30 ppg from my first comment about Young, at this point you’re just splitting hairs to find a stance opposite what I said because those amounts all qualify as near(~) 30 ppg. Elon saw their passing TDs increase by more than double between 2018 and him working with the WRs in 2019 and 2021 (skip COVID year). They averaged under 25 once in those 5 seasons and that was his first year as OC, they dropped 1 ppg before going on to have 4 of their best offensive seasons in that decade and their second best scoring performance in that same decade. The most important detail that cancels out any talk of Barnette being better, there was progress from year 1 until year 5 @ Colgate and Elon, as well as before and after results to go by. Barnette offenses were good before he arrive, regressed to the point of being bad while he was here, and showed no signs of progress. |
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Post by crowntownaggie on Nov 2, 2023 13:18:34 GMT -5
While I’m defending the man I do want to be clear that I am not happy about what he’s shown so far in with us, but I do see him as an upgrade over who we had.
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saabman
Official BDF member
Posts: 11,824
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Post by saabman on Nov 2, 2023 13:48:38 GMT -5
I have said this before an OC is only as good as the Talented athletes on hand You guys act like the OC is not actively involved in assembling the athletes around him. That is part of the job as OC in college football. It is called recruiting. No being able to recruit and develop talented athletes means you are not doing your job well as an Offensive Coordinator. You're correct 100% . Young didn't have that option do to the timing of his hiring to actually recruit the talent he is looking for that fits what he is trying to do. He is in a situation of evaluating the talent on hand that he inherited. But even that is no excuse because you still have to develop what you have and hope they get better, until you can get what you want through recruitment. I'm not a next year type of guy , I'm a right now type of guy and it is the OC's job to make and provide the necessary coaching , adjustments, replacements and even play calling to accommodate the talent you have on hand by playing to their strengths. Being that kind of guy I can see that the OC is trying to do just that. Does he deserve a second year who knows that's not my call. But after a season of evaluation and seeing what talent we are lacking at some positions. Whoever the OC,DC,RC,DLC OLC or staff period should know what positions to focus on with a full recruiting cycle to work with . |
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Post by DOOMS on Nov 2, 2023 14:07:10 GMT -5
While I’m defending the man I do want to be clear that I am not happy about what he’s shown so far in with us, but I do see him as an upgrade over who we had. We're dead last in the nation in total offense and passing offense. You really think Barnette would have us anywhere near as bad? That's not an upgrade. Put Barnette at Colgate with the same advantages Young had and they're getting an additional 50 ypg and five ppg. Put Young at Winston right now and they lose 100 ypg. I can't see anything to defend nor can I see any way to say anybody could be worse than the WORST OC in the nation with a straight face. You can't be the worst yet be an upgrade over someone else. I totally agree about Young's ability to upgrade the wr position. And that is where he should be, period. When it comes to overall offense and qb positions, he's out of his depth. I'm sure recruits are clamoring to play for a guy with his history at oc. (sarcasm). Meanwhile, Barnette put up numbers at Guilford and T. Give him two more years at Winston and they'll probably be leading the CIAA in total offense. Give Young two more years at T and Brown will be fired. |
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