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Post by neighborhoodsuperstar on Dec 15, 2015 10:24:16 GMT -5
OSA and others, You may not think our zone offense is a problem. You may think our zone offense is fine.....but here are opposing Coach Jeff Lebo's comments after the game: _________________________________________________________________________________________________________- ((( www.ecupirates.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/121315aae.html))) 1)On Charles Foster's performance "He did a good job defensively that's why he got a chance to play a little more. I thought he did a good job on [Sam] Hunt in the zone." 2)On the team's overall performance "We wanted to try to keep them off the foul line. You give up shots in[the zone] but you keep people off the foul line. In their last win at home I think they took 43 foul shots, and tonight they only got 17. I thought [Bruce] Beckford was terrific. He's a terrific player and he's hard to guard, but we did a good job particularly in the second half in our zone being able to make them shoot perimeter shots. We've got a lot of deficiencies that we're trying to hide but we've got to be able to shoot the ball much better. I don't think we're going to be able to score the ball inside much with what we have so it puts severe pressure on our perimeter shooting." ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ You are free to disagree with me, but when the opposing, victorious coach is telling you why his team was successful against us and folks on this site have been saying the same thing for years, I don't think everyone is far off in their assessments.....
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Dec 15, 2015 12:01:43 GMT -5
shooting perimeter shots is one of the "principles" of beating a zone, so that doesn't mean cy doesn't know how to attack a zone, it just means his guys missed their shots. a "zone offense" doesn't make your shots go in, "players" make shots go in.
again, you can post all the quotes you want, but you won't find a quote that says cy doesn't know how to fundamentally attack a zone. his guys missed some shots. but that has nothing to do with whether someone knows how to attack a zone or not. guys took decent shots but just missed them. but the zone offense created the good looks that they missed. again, a "zone offense" doesn't make shots go in, "players" make shots go in.
breakdown the game video and demonstrate where there's no concept of a zone offense being run because i saw a zone offense being run, i saw the gaps being penetrated by pass and dribble, and i saw shots taken over the top. all 3 of those things are principles of attacking a zone defense. missing perimeter shots doesn't mean you don't know how to attack a zone, it just means you missed your shots. bruce got most of his points "inside of the zone" from the high post and the low post. so i guess ecu's zone didn't stop bruce who scored 22 points and shot over 50% from the floor, including 2 three's...
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Post by neighborhoodsuperstar on Dec 15, 2015 12:44:19 GMT -5
I think we all know that perimeter shooting is our achilles heel......that's why many people employ the zone against us....but like I've stated previously, just because a team plays a zone defense doesn't mean you have to chuck shots from the 3-point line either. I agree with you.....shooting the gaps is important. Effectively passing through the heart of a zone is also important.......
Did we do those things.....we did, but it wasn't consistent. As Lebo said, when ECU employed the zone, ECU's fortunes positively changed.
Read all the quotes Lebo gave after the game. He didn't talk about how good ECU's full court press, 3/4 press, or man-to-man defense was against A&T.....HE HARPED ON THE ZONE BEING WHAT NEUTRALIZED US.
If you want to say the guys missed shots, which they did......you either 1) Recruit dudes who can shoot (we still haven't fully addressed this). 2) Constantly drill the team on how to "shoot the gaps" or effectively pass into the teeth of a zone.
I'm not saying what some of what you're saying is incorrect.....BUT IF THE OPPOSING COACH is telling you why things went well - and it mirrors exactly what posters like myself have said, you just cannot dismiss it as chump talk.
As I've stated before......Cy doesn't have to run his zone offense the way anyone on the board wants him to run it......but whatever zone offense he runs, IT HAS TO BE EFFECTIVE.
You can blame our bad zone offense on bad shooting, mental miscues, etc.......historically under Cy (and with the game Sunday), we have been a subaverage team when a 2-3 zone is put on us. I guarantee you that if you had an Aggie scouting report on you, it would say WE ARE A TEAM THAT IS NOT GOOD IN HANDLING A ZONE.
Again, you are free to disagree, but I just don't see where you can say our team is proficient when a 2-3 zone is employed on us.
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Dec 15, 2015 13:10:03 GMT -5
you’re “brain locked”. just because you say something repeatedly doesn’t make it true. do what i did, “breakdown the video” from the game and identify the frame(s) whereby a&t did not execute a zone offense properly. identify where a&t shows no concept of how to attack a zone? forget the talk, prove it on video. i defy you to “prove it on video” because neither you nor anybody else can. show where a&t does not invoke the principles of attacking a zone defense? show it, don’t say it. what frame(s) are you referring to?
you’re making “assumptions” about what somebody says versus what the “video” shows. ecu played half man-to-man and half zone. if the zone was so effective, ecu would’ve played zone for the entire game. again, bruce got most of his points “against the zone” and the “video” proves it.
if ecu’s zone was so effective, why didn’t they run it for the entire game? if the zone was so effective, why did bruce score 22 points primarily “against the interior” of ecu’s zone?
again, don’t say it, “prove it”! identify the ecu video frame(s) where a&t showed “ineptitude” when attacking the zone? the video is still available at espn3. don’t say it, “prove it”...
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saabman
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Post by saabman on Dec 15, 2015 13:24:13 GMT -5
I think we all know that perimeter shooting is our achilles heel......that's why many people employ the zone against us....but like I've stated previously, just because a team plays a zone defense doesn't mean you have to chuck shots from the 3-point line either. I agree with you.....shooting the gaps is important. Effectively passing through the heart of a zone is also important....... Did we do those things.....we did, but it wasn't consistent. As Lebo said, when ECU employed the zone, ECU's fortunes positively changed. Read all the quotes Lebo gave after the game. He didn't talk about how good ECU's full court press, 3/4 press, or man-to-man defense was against A&T.....HE HARPED ON THE ZONE BEING WHAT NEUTRALIZED US. If you want to say the guys missed shots, which they did......you either 1) Recruit dudes who can shoot (we still haven't fully addressed this). 2) Constantly drill the team on how to "shoot the gaps" or effectively pass into the teeth of a zone. I'm not saying what some of what you're saying is incorrect.....BUT IF THE OPPOSING COACH is telling you why things went well - and it mirrors exactly what posters like myself have said, you just cannot dismiss it as chump talk. As I've stated before......Cy doesn't have to run his zone offense the way anyone on the board wants him to run it......but whatever zone offense he runs, IT HAS TO BE EFFECTIVE. You can blame our bad zone offense on bad shooting, mental miscues, etc.......historically under Cy (and with the game Sunday), we have been a subaverage team when a 2-3 zone is put on us. I guarantee you that if you had an Aggie scouting report on you, it would say WE ARE A TEAM THAT IS NOT GOOD IN HANDLING A ZONE. Again, you are free to disagree, but I just don't see where you can say our team is proficient when a 2-3 zone is employed on us. Cy attacked ECU's zone was appropriate and would have been effective if players would have hit their shots! He was banking on A&T's inability to hit the 18 to 20 footer consistently. He also pointed out that his goal was to keep A&T off the Free Throw line that is not on coach Cy !
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Post by neighborhoodsuperstar on Dec 15, 2015 13:25:06 GMT -5
you’re making “assumptions” about what somebody says versus what the “video” shows. ecu played half man-to-man and half zone. if the zone was so effective, ecu would’ve played zone for the entire game. I can spin this back on you....... If ECU played 50% zone and 50% man-to-man, why didn't Lebo effusively praise the team's man-to-man defense after the game??? There were no comments from him about how good ECU's man defense was - why.....because Bruce was lighting them up in it. That's why Lebo said he switched to the zone and didn't get out of it for the rest of the way. Let's do this OSA, since you don't believe what I or the opposing coach has to say. Let's ask the board: 1) For those who saw the game either on TV or were at the game, what defense did ECU ultimately run that did us in? 2) Knowing our team's strengths and weaknesses, if you were an opposing team's coach, what defense would you primarily run against A&T?
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Post by neighborhoodsuperstar on Dec 15, 2015 13:35:13 GMT -5
Humor me Saabman, ---A&T's best player is Bruce Beckford (a post player) ---A&T shoots only 30% from the 3-point line
If you were a coach for an opposing team, what defense would you primarily run on us to minimize our strengths and highlight our weaknesses??
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Dec 15, 2015 14:07:19 GMT -5
i'm not interested in "opinions", i'm only interested in "facts". i “know” what zone offense is and i “know” what it looks like when its executed. i know when i see it and i know when i don’t see it. i saw a&t execute “very sound” zone offensive principles against ecu. i don’t need someone else’s opinion because i saw it with my own eyes.
that’s why i challenged you to identify video frames where a&t did not exhibit offensively sound principles against ecu’s zone. should be easy for you to do since you say coach cy doesn’t know how to attack a zone. so go ahead, replay the video and point out where a&t does not execute sound principles when attacking the zone.
i’ll wait, i’ve already seen the entire video and would luv for you or anybody who agrees with you to identify where a&t doesn’t show sound offensive principles against ecu's zone defense...
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saabman
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Post by saabman on Dec 15, 2015 14:32:02 GMT -5
Humor me Saabman, ---A&T's best player is Bruce Beckford (a post player) ---A&T shoots only 30% from the 3-point line If you were a coach for an opposing team, what defense would you primarily run on us to minimize our strengths and highlight our weaknesses?? look this is not about what defense he chose but what was appropriate at this time to secure the victory. he chose to go to a zone because it was appropriate at the time because nothing else was working. That is what coaches do you find the team's weakness and you take advantage of it, that Had nothing to do with how A&T attacked the zone !!! What it has to do is that A&T has to find shooters that can hit mid to long rang shots. coach Cy's approach to attacking the zone was the right approach but the players did not hit the shots that's the bottom line! you cannot blame the coach for players that can not hit an open uncontested jump shot or attack the basket with aggression ! Man all this blaming junk has to stop at some point everyone has to step up the coaches, players and most of all the fans ! Lol you know what I love about sports its like the Bibles you can always find something to fit your agenda....lol In this case prayers for the team to succeed..0:)
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Post by neighborhoodsuperstar on Dec 15, 2015 15:05:49 GMT -5
OSA, I'm not going to waste going through frame by frame for a 40-minute game to highlight every single instance where we faltered in the zone.......you're asking me to do something that is frankly illogical and not done on message boards. NO ONE - including you, has ever told a person or the BDV board to go to certain minute marks of an A&T game to analyze what happened. Even in our discussions, you have NEVER EVER gone to certain instances in a game to prove a point you are trying to make.......yet you want me to do it to prove my point? What sense does that really make.....and once again, ECU's head coach told you exactly what his strategy was to beat us. You like disagreeing with me. It's what you do.....but you're gonna disagree with the strategy a coach said he used to beat us??? C'mon BDV board, does that really make any sense whatsoever?? This wasn't me talking......this was ECU's head coach!!!Saabman - I'm sorry you can't answer my question....but if: 1)The opposing team is notorious for not shooting well, 2)The primary player on the opposing team is a post player .....TEAMS WILL ZONE YOU!! I know it hurts for you to admit it, but it's the truth. Guys, you are free to say what I'm saying is not making sense....but the daggone coach who just beat us is saying EXACTLY what I'm saying.....and you refute what he's saying as well. It's mystifying to me.... I gonna leave it like this ---- even if our team is cutting through the zone and/or passing through the zone like NSS, OSA, saabman and Cy Alexander wants them to.....but the shot they end up taking is a shot they normally don't make.......doesn't that mean they don't understand what type of shot to take when facing a zone defense? Don't you try to help them understand what's the best or better shot to attempt in a zone defense??? What Coach Lebo said was factual Our 31% 3-point FG percentage is factual I believe in formulating opinions.....off of facts.
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Post by DOOMS on Dec 15, 2015 15:16:21 GMT -5
NSS, let it go. Sheesh.
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saabman
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Post by saabman on Dec 15, 2015 15:24:22 GMT -5
OSA, I'm not going to waste going through frame by frame for a 40-minute game to highlight every single instance where we faltered in the zone.......you're asking me to do something that is frankly illogical and not done on message boards. NO ONE - including you, has ever told a person or the BDV board to go to certain minute marks of an A&T game to analyze what happened. Even in our discussions, you have NEVER EVER gone toagain instances in a game to prove a point you are trying to make.......yet you want me to do it to prove my point? What sense does that really make.....and once again, ECU's head coach told you exactly what his strategy was to beat us. You like disagreeing with me. It's what you do.....but you're gonna disagree with the strategy a coach said he used to beat us??? C'mon BDV board, does that really make any sense whatsoever?? This wasn't me talking......this was ECU's head coach!!!Saabman - I'm sorry you can't answer my question....but if: 1)The opposing team is notorious for not shooting well, 2)The primary player on the opposing team is a post player .....TEAMS WILL ZONE YOU!! I know it hurts for you to admit it, but it's the truth. Guys, you are free to say what I'm saying is not making sense....but the daggone coach who just beat us is saying EXACTLY what I'm saying.....and you refute what he's saying as well. It's mystifying to me.... I gonna leave it like this ---- even if our team is cutting through the zone and/or passing through the zone like NSS, OSA, saabman and Cy Alexander wants them to.....but the shot they end up taking is a shot they normally don't make.......doesn't that mean they don't understand what type of shot to take when facing a zone defense? Don't you try to help them understand what's the best or better shot to attempt in a zone defense??? What Coach Lebo said was factual Our 31% 3-point FG percentage is factual I believe in formulating opinions.....off of facts. please don't distorted and miss read my statement ok. this is not about who is right and who is wrong, my statement was about what a coach as to do to exploit the weaknesses of an opposing team. Hell any coach in their right mind would have came out in the zone from the beginning also a lot of the uncontested shots that were missed where wide open ones that should have been made shoots,the same shoots that or made in practice everyday! you can not blame the coach if a player makes shots in practice but for some reason shoots bricks in a game. coaches go on what they see in practice if you execute well in practice you should be able to do the same in the game that is what I have always explained to my athletes !
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Dec 15, 2015 15:49:50 GMT -5
what you stated should be “very easy” to see. you stated that coach cy ”doesn’t know how to attack a zone defense”, yet you can’t even identify one single frame out of an entire game to prove it. if a coach doesn’t know how to attack a zone defense, then it should be very easy to prove it. matter of fact, the entire game should prove it since you say he doesn’t know how to, period.
i put all of my cards on the table by stating that i did not see “any” instances that demonstrated that coach cy doesn’t have a clue about how to attack a zone defense, period. i saw sound execution against the zone and in some cases, “excellent” execution against the zone (high post entry pass to beckford, beckford’s low post bounce pass to burrough).
there’s nothing flawed regarding coach cy’s zone offense. a few bad decisions “by players”, but the zone offense itself exercises very sound zone offensive principles. i'm done, that's all i got to say regarding this...
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Post by neighborhoodsuperstar on Dec 15, 2015 15:56:35 GMT -5
You're touting Cy's approach (the losing coach). I'm touting Lebo's approach (the winning coach).
With that - I'm done, too. Good luck Aggies vs Grambling. This team still has the pieces to turn this thing around.
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Maxell
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Post by Maxell on Dec 15, 2015 17:13:16 GMT -5
Listen guys, I saw the game. We do have trouble attacking the zone. Because we don't execute the three basic tenets of any zone attack. we attempt them but don't always pull it off.
1) Entry pass. When our bigs flash to the free throw line, our guards don't always make the pass, particularly when it wasn't Beckford that was flashing. When Beckford flashed he usually made a good decision to shoot or find a cutter underneath. When others flashed, the guards would ball fake the pass most of the time and when they did make the pass the flasher didn't do anything with the ball or never posed a threat. When that happened we ended up settling for an outside shot.
2) Penetration. ECU was long at the guard position (6-5 and 6-6) which limited penetration opportunities against the zone. Singleton couldn't seem to get inside as often as usual and Hunt didn't attempt to go inside as often as he has in some other games. We have to penetrate the soft spots.
3) Shooting. We can't shoot, but some people still think we can. Our guards set up too far outside the arc so when they take an open shot it is four feet beyond the arc rath than 4 inches beyond the arc. Both shos are worth three points.
Overall, we are tentative against zone defenses and not aggressive enough therefore end up settling at the end of the shot clock many times. There were at least three complete air balls that were unnecessary. On the positive side we executed enough at the beginning of the game against the zone to make them switch to a man to man. Then they went on an 18-5 run. They switched back to zone when Beckford had success against the man to man. Cy seemed to make an adjustment to get them back into the game vs the man to man. As the zone created long rebounds in the second half, ECU got three or four easy baskets on fast breaks that kept their lead in 7-11 point range the rest if the game.
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