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Post by ohsixrain on Jan 5, 2012 15:03:53 GMT -5
Decks...how do you think I'm making any kind of excuse? Okay...we beat a D2 team in overtime...but that's relative. Is it out the question for a team to come in and get a hot hand and almost beat us? I don't think so...you guys are okay as long as the team with the hot hand is classified as Division I and we lose.
We always Monday Morning Quarterback everything with our athletics...for the most part, I have no problem with it...have at it if you so choose. But, in doing so...make sure you aren't looking at the situation from a naive perspective, then speak as if you have all the facts. The perspective from which I speak is from knowledge gained working in A&T athletics and seeing the day to day operations. Now, I'm a few years removed and unless something's drastically changed, I'm pretty sure things are pretty much the same...with the exception of the last year or so. So, for one to say we can hire a much better coach than Eaves only knows half the story. What you need to know is...our coach must be able to schedule guaranteed games ($$), which the basketball program is not guaranteed to see any of this money. Also, this coach mush graduate players, see our APR before Eaves. Also, this coach must stay within his/her alloted annual budget. Then, he/she must coach, recruit and win the MEAC championship. Is there a coach out there than can do it better than Eaves?? Probably...but, I doubt you will get that person cheap...just my opinion. You can call that an excuse if you'd like...but it is what it is. Some of you talk is if you have a magical wand and can make a coach appear and execute all these aforementioned requirements for minimum wage. I just don't see that as a reality. However, it's not impossible but, I'll say improbable. Our head coaching job is more than recruiting and coaching x's and o's. If it were that simple, then I think we would've been had a new coach. Just think about it.
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Post by Aggie Monster on Jan 5, 2012 15:28:53 GMT -5
I agree ohsixrain. I've tried to tell people that our head coach has to be waaay more than an X's and O's guy. I think its that way at any mid major without a huge budget.
The only thing I disagree with is that someone good has to come at a premium price. I think the APR fiasco's in the past came from leaving the basketaball (and football) coaches unchecked and hiring them without thoroughly vetting their plan or even giving them the schools expectations(and constraints) prior to hiring them.
The next coach that comes in should already know the 5 or 6 things you just listed up front along with "this is what we are able to give you to achieve that". Now if promises are broken then that's on the admins, but after knowing what you would have and you still fail is on the coach. In Eaves case I dont know which one was which. Was he promised more than what he got? Dont know. But until we start fresh under new admins(which we already got) AND a new coach the blame will always be placed on whomever side you are not on.
If you gave me a paying head coaching job I'd probably be using my own loot to travel the country if you didn't give it to me. If I made 150K then 10K of my own money would be used(without the university knowing) to fill up my gas tank, catch that flight, rent that car, etc, etc just cause I want to win. At the same time I would still push the university to pay for more stuff also. Thats just what your are suppose to do. A few players would be bunking at my crib for a 7 day bootcamp over the summer. The wife would be cooking for 7 for about a week. I'm not a college coach, but I say this cause I know coaches that do it and I would do it if I were one. Thats what hungry EMPLOYEES do! Eaves has been here 8 years. I haven't seen that type of drive. Maybe he would tell me to "piss off and I dont know what he does in his spare time", but then I would say "you must be wasting it", LOL.
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Post by The Professor on Jan 5, 2012 15:53:09 GMT -5
My only suggestion would be....the people that we put in positions to make decisions and lead, give them the total autonomy to do just that. Don't get rid of Eaves then bring in another coach and tie his hand behind his back and tell him to go out there and win us some championships. I think that's the "bass-akwards" train of thought that has literally choked the life out of most of the athletic programs. We continually practice this behavior/train of thought. If Dr. Martin and Mr. Hilton are serious about turning athletics around like you guys say...then that will have to be the approach. Get a coach that loves his/her craft, provide he/she proper amount of resources to be competitive and allow them to coach the way he/she sees fit. That's the only way it will get turned around. Our program gets far more resources than Carver Bible College. It's time to stop it with the excuses and start holding folks accountable. No one else in the athletic department is held accountable so why start with Eaves
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Post by The Professor on Jan 5, 2012 15:55:17 GMT -5
Decks...how do you think I'm making any kind of excuse? Okay...we beat a D2 team in overtime...but that's relative. Is it out the question for a team to come in and get a hot hand and almost beat us? I don't think so...you guys are okay as long as the team with the hot hand is classified as Division I and we lose. We always Monday Morning Quarterback everything with our athletics...for the most part, I have no problem with it...have at it if you so choose. But, in doing so...make sure you aren't looking at the situation from a naive perspective, then speak as if you have all the facts. The perspective from which I speak is from knowledge gained working in A&T athletics and seeing the day to day operations. Now, I'm a few years removed and unless something's drastically changed, I'm pretty sure things are pretty much the same...with the exception of the last year or so. So, for one to say we can hire a much better coach than Eaves only knows half the story. What you need to know is...our coach must be able to schedule guaranteed games ($$), which the basketball program is not guaranteed to see any of this money. Also, this coach mush graduate players, see our APR before Eaves. Also, this coach must stay within his/her alloted annual budget. Then, he/she must coach, recruit and win the MEAC championship. Is there a coach out there than can do it better than Eaves?? Probably...but, I doubt you will get that person cheap...just my opinion. You can call that an excuse if you'd like...but it is what it is. Some of you talk is if you have a magical wand and can make a coach appear and execute all these aforementioned requirements for minimum wage. I just don't see that as a reality. However, it's not impossible but, I'll say improbable. Our head coaching job is more than recruiting and coaching x's and o's. If it were that simple, then I think we would've been had a new coach. Just think about it. Stands and applauds. One of the best posts about this whole situation
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DECKS
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Post by DECKS on Jan 5, 2012 16:25:37 GMT -5
Our program gets far more resources than Carver Bible College. It's time to stop it with the excuses and start holding folks accountable. No one else in the athletic department is held accountable so why start with Eaves I would suggest you start a seperate thread on the others you want held accountable but for now let's stick with Eaves in this thread.
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Jan 5, 2012 16:37:33 GMT -5
i normally agree with ohsixrain's posts. but in all due respect, i disagree with him this time. its not nearly as difficult to hire a good coach as he makes it seem. he makes valid points, but all it takes is a "COMPETENT" athletic director who knows what the hail he's doing. its not hard to find a person who meets all the criteria necessary to be successful in the meac. every attribute that a good coach must have can be "verified", even for those who do not have college head coaching experience.
you can "verify" a coach's recruiting ability. you can "verify" a coach's basketball knowledge. you can "verify" a coach's teaching ability. you can "verify" a coach's leadership ability. you can "verify" everything that it takes to be a good college coach "IF" you know what you're doing.
so i don't buy the notion that its so difficult to hire a good coach. however, i do buy the notion that some athletic directors are too "LAZY" to thoroughly do all the necessary homework and background checks on each head coaching candidate before making a hire. when you do all the homework and background checks necessary, you don't end up with a guy like lee fobbs or curtis hunter. instead, folk want to cut corners rather than put in the hard work. folk want to take shortcuts, hire their friends, or rely on unreliable references instead of putting in the hard work.
we can't just hire any coach. we have to hire coaches who have "unique" abilities to succeed with less resources and less support. it takes "hard work" to find the right person for our job. ya can't just read resumes, bring folk in for interviews, and then call it a day. you have to do thorough research, especially for relatively inexperienced and unknown coaches. but if you put the time in, the hard work, and adequate resources into it, you can come up with a good coach who meets our needs...
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Post by marchingband1969 on Jan 5, 2012 17:05:06 GMT -5
I agree ohsixrain. I've tried to tell people that our head coach has to be waaay more than an X's and O's guy. I think its that way at any mid major without a huge budget. The only thing I disagree with is that someone good has to come at a premium price. I think the APR fiasco's in the past came from leaving the basketaball (and football) coaches unchecked and hiring them without thoroughly vetting their plan or even giving them the schools expectations(and constraints) prior to hiring them. The next coach that comes in should already know the 5 or 6 things you just listed up front along with "this is what we are able to give you to achieve that". Now if promises are broken then that's on the admins, but after knowing what you would have and you still fail is on the coach. In Eaves case I dont know which one was which. Was he promised more than what he got? Dont know. But until we start fresh under new admins(which we already got) AND a new coach the blame will always be placed on whomever side you are not on. If you gave me a paying head coaching job I'd probably be using my own loot to travel the country if you didn't give it to me. If I made 150K then 10K of my own money would be used(without the university knowing) to fill up my gas tank, catch that flight, rent that car, etc, etc just cause I want to win. At the same time I would still push the university to pay for more stuff also. Thats just what your are suppose to do. A few players would be bunking at my crib for a 7 day bootcamp over the summer. The wife would be cooking for 7 for about a week. I'm not a college coach, but I say this cause I know coaches that do it and I would do it if I were one. Thats what hungry EMPLOYEES do! Eaves has been here 8 years. I haven't seen that type of drive. Maybe he would tell me to "piss off and I dont know what he does in his spare time", but then I would say "you must be wasting it", LOL. Hey Monster, I can remember giving an un-named football coach my personal gas card years ago so he could do some recruiting in my area. I went to many god-awful high school football and basketball games just so I could mail an unsolicited scouting report to the A&T coaches. There are ways to build a winning team. If we ever hired a coach that really wanted to win, I mean really wanted to win, our limited budget would not stop him.
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Post by ohsixrain on Jan 5, 2012 17:09:03 GMT -5
Oleschool...what's the probability you'll find that guy for cheap?? I'm not saying "that" guy isn't out there because he is...but at what cost? Think about it...we were willing to almost double Maynor's salary but, when recognized the situation he'd be placed in...he gave us his azz to kiss and stayed at WSSU.
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Post by DECKS on Jan 5, 2012 17:26:45 GMT -5
Decks...how do you think I'm making any kind of excuse? Okay...we beat a D2 team in overtime...but that's relative. Is it out the question for a team to come in and get a hot hand and almost beat us? I don't think so...you guys are okay as long as the team with the hot hand is classified as Division I and we lose. We always Monday Morning Quarterback everything with our athletics...for the most part, I have no problem with it...have at it if you so choose. But, in doing so...make sure you aren't looking at the situation from a naive perspective, then speak as if you have all the facts. The perspective from which I speak is from knowledge gained working in A&T athletics and seeing the day to day operations. Now, I'm a few years removed and unless something's drastically changed, I'm pretty sure things are pretty much the same...with the exception of the last year or so. So, for one to say we can hire a much better coach than Eaves only knows half the story. What you need to know is...our coach must be able to schedule guaranteed games ($$), which the basketball program is not guaranteed to see any of this money. Also, this coach mush graduate players, see our APR before Eaves. Also, this coach must stay within his/her alloted annual budget. Then, he/she must coach, recruit and win the MEAC championship. Is there a coach out there than can do it better than Eaves?? Probably...but, I doubt you will get that person cheap...just my opinion. You can call that an excuse if you'd like...but it is what it is. Some of you talk is if you have a magical wand and can make a coach appear and execute all these aforementioned requirements for minimum wage. I just don't see that as a reality. However, it's not impossible but, I'll say improbable. Our head coaching job is more than recruiting and coaching x's and o's. If it were that simple, then I think we would've been had a new coach. Just think about it. Losing to a D-I or even a D-II team is one thing but getting outplayed by an NAIA school on our home court should be unacceptable to all of us. After all this was scheduled as an easy win, wasn't it? For the record I don't judge Eaves against the major D-I schools. My scrutiny begins with peer institutions and lower. Eaves primary duties are: 1.) Recruit, retain and graduate successful student athletes. 2.) Raise money ($325,000) for the school thru guarantee games. 3.) Build, direct and manage a successful mens basketball program.Needless to say he's performing quite well with #1 and #2 but is it acceptable to not perform well at all the objectives, especially after nine years on the job? Would your employer allow you to be successful at only 66% of your job? I'm not one who thinks it would be easy to find a worthwhile replacement; however that should not stop us from doing what should be done. His resources are on par with most of the MEAC coaches so again, it's time to stop using that as an excuse. It comes to a point where either a person can get the job done or they can't. Nine years has given us enough time to make a fair assesment. There is someone out there who can take this program and at least make us competitive within the MEAC. We just need to commit to finding him/her using sound hiring practices. I'm not in favor of firing Eaves but I do think reassigning him elsewhere within the university would be the best for all concerned. Keeping him in a position which he can't be successful really isn't fair to him or the team.
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Jan 5, 2012 17:43:54 GMT -5
Oleschool...what's the probability you'll find that guy for cheap?? I'm not saying "that" guy isn't out there because he is...but at what cost? Think about it...we were willing to almost double Maynor's salary but, when recognized the situation he'd be placed in...he gave us his azz to kiss and stayed at WSSU. ohsixrain, i keep trying to tell folk that hiring football coaches versus hiring basketball coaches is like night and day. good football coaches are harder to find and harder to evaluate than good basketball coaches. plus, maynor had leverage. he already had a head coaching job and he knew he didn't have to leave. it was easy for him to play hard ball. we don't have to hire a coach who has college head coaching experience, though it would be less risky and more expensive if we did. its easier to find a good basketball coach "on the cheap" because there's a lot of them who are either coaching high school or altogether are unemployed as a basketball coach. high school coaches make peanuts compared to college coaches. no high school coach that i know of would turn down a $120k per year college job just to make about $12k to $60k per year coaching high school. eaves easily makes more than $120k per year. when i was coaching high school, i didn't work full time at the school. i only got paid for the months i coached and i got paid a part time salary. obviously, i had a full time job that paid my household bills and didn't have to rely on my basketball salary to do so. but there's a lot of coaches who don't get paid at all (such as most aau coaches) or make a minimum salary. and i'm talking bout coaches who have major d1 college playing experience. i hate to beat a dead horse, but coaches like hampton's david six, famu's ledawn gibson, and nccu's levelle moton were doing exactly that before they became college head coaches. hampton's eddie joyner was an assistant women's basketball coach at jcsu before becoming hampton's men's head basketball coach. how much you wanna bet he would have "killed" to take our job for $120k per year had he not been hired by hampton first? how much money do you think he made as jcsu's women's assistant coach? all i'm saying is that there's a premium on any d1 head coaching job. guys are making peanuts coaching high school or aau. that's why i know salary wouldn't be an issue "IF" we do our homework and find the right person. there's plenty more david six's, shaka smarts, and levelle moton's out there. guys that have a ton of experience, but don't make jack coaching. believe it or not, some of them are even coaching for free somewhere! unlike football, there's basketball teams everywhere and all of them have coaches. many of them have 4 years of college experience from major d1's on down. these guys have track records that can easily be verified. you just have to know what you're looking for and how to find it...
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Post by aggie75 on Jan 5, 2012 18:44:58 GMT -5
I agree Oleschool, and if I remember correctly Eaves salary is more like 130,000 than 120,000. I just took a look at his previous contract and I found what it said about guaranteed games and termination very interesting. www.wral.com/news/local/flash/5917080/
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Post by The Professor on Jan 5, 2012 18:49:35 GMT -5
i normally agree with ohsixrain's posts. but in all due respect, i disagree with him this time. its not nearly as difficult to hire a good coach as he makes it seem. he makes valid points, but all it takes is a " COMPETENT" athletic director who knows what the hail he's doing. its not hard to find a person who meets all the criteria necessary to be successful in the meac. every attribute that a good coach must have can be " verified", even for those who do not have college head coaching experience. you can "verify" a coach's recruiting ability. you can "verify" a coach's basketball knowledge. you can "verify" a coach's teaching ability. you can "verify" a coach's leadership ability. you can "verify" everything that it takes to be a good college coach "IF" you know what you're doing. so i don't buy the notion that its so difficult to hire a good coach. however, i do buy the notion that some athletic directors are too " LAZY" to thoroughly do all the necessary homework and background checks on each head coaching candidate before making a hire. when you do all the homework and background checks necessary, you don't end up with a guy like lee fobbs or curtis hunter. instead, folk want to cut corners rather than put in the hard work. folk want to take shortcuts, hire their friends, or rely on unreliable references instead of putting in the hard work. we can't just hire any coach. we have to hire coaches who have "unique" abilities to succeed with less resources and less support. it takes "hard work" to find the right person for our job. ya can't just read resumes, bring folk in for interviews, and then call it a day. you have to do thorough research, especially for relatively inexperienced and unknown coaches. but if you put the time in, the hard work, and adequate resources into it, you can come up with a good coach who meets our needs... And who's to blame for not hiring COMPETENT AD's? Hell there have been 4 here since we hired Eaves
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Post by aggie2ru on Jan 5, 2012 19:17:46 GMT -5
;DMaybe we should sign Eaves up to a 10 year contract extension and join the NAIA. At least the games will be close AND exciting!!!! Maybe we can get about 300 victims to watch it! Let's play the Preachers again next year! CAN'T WAIT! ;D
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Post by aggie2ru on Jan 5, 2012 19:21:02 GMT -5
Calling all past Chancellors and AD's come get your boy, "Mr..500 in MEAC" befo we join the da NAIA. AGGIE PRIDE
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oleschoolaggie
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Post by oleschoolaggie on Jan 5, 2012 20:28:39 GMT -5
i normally agree with ohsixrain's posts. but in all due respect, i disagree with him this time. its not nearly as difficult to hire a good coach as he makes it seem. he makes valid points, but all it takes is a " COMPETENT" athletic director who knows what the hail he's doing. its not hard to find a person who meets all the criteria necessary to be successful in the meac. every attribute that a good coach must have can be " verified", even for those who do not have college head coaching experience. you can "verify" a coach's recruiting ability. you can "verify" a coach's basketball knowledge. you can "verify" a coach's teaching ability. you can "verify" a coach's leadership ability. you can "verify" everything that it takes to be a good college coach "IF" you know what you're doing. so i don't buy the notion that its so difficult to hire a good coach. however, i do buy the notion that some athletic directors are too " LAZY" to thoroughly do all the necessary homework and background checks on each head coaching candidate before making a hire. when you do all the homework and background checks necessary, you don't end up with a guy like lee fobbs or curtis hunter. instead, folk want to cut corners rather than put in the hard work. folk want to take shortcuts, hire their friends, or rely on unreliable references instead of putting in the hard work. we can't just hire any coach. we have to hire coaches who have "unique" abilities to succeed with less resources and less support. it takes "hard work" to find the right person for our job. ya can't just read resumes, bring folk in for interviews, and then call it a day. you have to do thorough research, especially for relatively inexperienced and unknown coaches. but if you put the time in, the hard work, and adequate resources into it, you can come up with a good coach who meets our needs... And who's to blame for not hiring COMPETENT AD's? Hell there have been 4 here since we hired Eaves professor, i'm not trying to point any fingers at any one ad that's been at a&t. like i stated in a previous post, i don't blame any of our ad's, present nor past. instead, i blame whomever was responsible for hiring any of our ad's that did or is doing a poor job. whoever that person(s) is, that's who i blame. matter of fact, i blame whoever that person(s) has been for the last 10 years at a&t. that may or may not be multiple people, i don't know. but whomever the ad has been reporting to for the last decade or so, plus all of his superiors are the people i blame...
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