Freeze
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Post by Freeze on Jul 3, 2020 10:57:25 GMT -5
I was really reluctant to post this and others have already expressed this in their own way in separate threads. But I think it's an important topic to expound on and hopefully we can have an intelligent discussion about it. Black colleges are sitting at a very important crossroads right now. Much of the racial tension that is being unleashed in the country is once again being fueled by young people, many of them college aged youth. If HBCUs properly seize this moment, they can once again offer themselves as a powerful alternative where Black youth can be empowered and inspired to serve as change agents during this national crisis. I imagine if we weren't currently dealing with a pandemic, HBCUs would see a rise in their enrollment numbers due to this.
Having said that, I am going to point out what we all know to be true...the HBCU experience is vastly different. We do not have the same campus culture that Big South institutions do, nor do we share the same historical mission. I DO NOT expect that to change for A&T. HOWEVER, I do think we lose out on marketing the HBCU niche that so many students AND student-athletes look for. Today's commitment of 5 star basketball athlete Maker Makur to Howard could indeed be a watershed moment where other top caliber Black athletes begin to look to HBCUs as an alternative. I am sure that a large part of Makur's commitment was influenced by the desire to completely indulge in the HBCU game day culture which will include going to other Black institutions and playing against the likes of Norfolk, NCCU, Morgan, and others.
It concerns me that our players and students are going to lose that road game experience when we begin to play the Campbel's, Radford's, and Monmouth's of the Big South world. If indeed we begin to see a groundswell of Black athletes wanting to return to Black colleges for the full experience, how much of that experience will we be able to offer them if the majority of our opponents don't share our HBCU culture?? I get that the university gave great thought and study as to why it was time to leave the MEAC....however I wonder how much or how long did A&T dwell on the problem of losing the HBCU niche....or did it dwell on it at all??
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Post by marchingband1969 on Jul 3, 2020 11:15:30 GMT -5
"It concerns me that our players and students are going to lose that road game experience when we begin to play the Campbel's, Radford's, and Monmouth's of the Big South world." Maybe things are very different now than when I went to A&T (50 years ago) but students back then rarely went to away games. Yeah a few "party folks" would visit other campuses for away game but very few. So back then, there was no "road game experience" for the majority of the A&T students. And based on the fact that today's students don't even show up for our home games, I can't imagine that very many students are showing up at away games. Alumni usually are the ones that show up for away games.
But I'd like to present another theory about "away games in the Big South." I think a few more of our students will potentially attend Big South away games. Why? Well most of the away games are closer and our students can easily drive there. The other reason I think they will attend more away games is, like us oldheads, these kids still like to beat PWIs. A lot of their high schools classmates that questioned why they went to A&T are going to PWI...and they want to see their expression when we beat them on the field and at halftime.
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Post by durhamgsoaggie on Jul 3, 2020 12:22:54 GMT -5
"It concerns me that our players and students are going to lose that road game experience when we begin to play the Campbel's, Radford's, and Monmouth's of the Big South world." Maybe things are very different now than when I went to A&T (50 years ago) but students back then rarely went to away games. Yeah a few "party folks" would visit other campuses for away game but very few. So back then, there was no "road game experience" for the majority of the A&T students. And based on the fact that today's students don't even show up for our home games, I can't imagine that very many students are showing up at away games. Alumni usually are the ones that show up for away games. But I'd like to present another theory about "away games in the Big South." I think a few more of our students will potentially attend Big South away games. Why? Well most of the away games are closer and our students can easily drive there. The other reason I think they will attend more away games is, like us oldheads, these kids still like to beat PWIs. A lot of their high schools classmates that questioned why they went to A&T are going to PWI...and they want to see their expression when we beat them on the field and at halftime. Correct on students traveling to away games. Heck... our students rarely travel to Norfolk for the MEAC Basketball Tournament. They are MUCH more likely to attend the Big South Tournament in Charlotte, taking COVID-19 out the equation. Same for the baseball heads with the Big South Tournament in Fayetteville instead of Salisbury, MD or Daytona Beach, FL. Hampton is in our conference. And we're going to play NCCU in every sport possible. We're not going to lose our HBCU niche... unless we as alumni choose to let it go. That's on us.
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aggie2039
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Post by aggie2039 on Jul 3, 2020 12:28:37 GMT -5
The HBCU niche is more about being in an environment where its ok to be your authentic self and looked at a person not just an athlete. Its a safe space to be apologetically black, furthermore its a space where it safe to be black and smart. Growing up in Decatur, Ga a basically all black high school the guys on the express bus to prison got all the women while those focused on education werent even looked at.
95% of the HBCU experience is the safe space of the campus and the culture of home sporting events not the away games. Being a HBCU in a PWI conference provide kids with more options which is better. There isnt an one size fits all which people fail to understand...some kids will like the safety of attending a HBCU and the competition of a PWI conf.
kids have options these days and the more options we as a collective provide the better.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 12:37:07 GMT -5
We're still an 1890 Land Grant University and HBCU. Our population is still around 75% African-American/Black and our traditions aren't changing. We're also still going to play NCCU and other MEAC schools in a variety of athletic competitions.
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Freeze
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Post by Freeze on Jul 3, 2020 12:37:45 GMT -5
"It concerns me that our players and students are going to lose that road game experience when we begin to play the Campbel's, Radford's, and Monmouth's of the Big South world." Maybe things are very different now than when I went to A&T (50 years ago) but students back then rarely went to away games. Yeah a few "party folks" would visit other campuses for away game but very few. So back then, there was no "road game experience" for the majority of the A&T students. And based on the fact that today's students don't even show up for our home games, I can't imagine that very many students are showing up at away games. Alumni usually are the ones that show up for away games. But I'd like to present another theory about "away games in the Big South." I think a few more of our students will potentially attend Big South away games. Why? Well most of the away games are closer and our students can easily drive there. The other reason I think they will attend more away games is, like us oldheads, these kids still like to beat PWIs. A lot of their high schools classmates that questioned why they went to A&T are going to PWI...and they want to see their expression when we beat them on the field and at halftime. My point was not road game experience for our students or fans...it was for our athletes. I have never been a college athlete but I can imagine that it feels a lot different to play at Norfolk State than it does to play at Radford and more importantly, in this current political climate where we witness top caliber Black athletes considering to come play at HBCUs, I am sure they are signing up because they want the FULL HBCU game day experience which will NOT be replicated in the Big South.
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Post by DOOMS on Jul 3, 2020 13:09:11 GMT -5
I've never been a college athlete myself, but my thinking is as long as my school is providing the hbcu game day experience, all is well. My greatest concerns would be the FULL HBCU EXPERIENCE and making sure I had a scholarship. Most of my time should be spent on campus with my fellow students. When game time comes I'm tuned out of what's going on on the sidelines anyways. The full hbcu game day experience is for alumni.
As a fan, I've gotten more satisfaction over the years from beating pwis than hbcus primarily because hbcus are not expected to beat pwis. To have the opportunity to go into a pwi conference and have a chance to be consistently in the top half is an opportunity I would look forward to. Especially with the knowledge we'll still occasionally play hbcus. It's like R. Kelly meets Jay-Z to me.
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Freeze
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Post by Freeze on Jul 3, 2020 16:29:04 GMT -5
I've never been a college athlete myself, but my thinking is as long as my school is providing the hbcu game day experience, all is well. My greatest concerns would be the FULL HBCU EXPERIENCE and making sure I had a scholarship. Most of my time should be spent on campus with my fellow students. When game time comes I'm tuned out of what's going on on the sidelines anyways. The full hbcu game day experience is for alumni. As a fan, I've gotten more satisfaction over the years from beating pwis than hbcus primarily because hbcus are not expected to beat pwis. To have the opportunity to go into a pwi conference and have a chance to be consistently in the top half is an opportunity I would look forward to. Especially with the knowledge we'll still occasionally play hbcus. It's like R. Kelly meets Jay-Z to me. Is it safe to reference R. Kelly again? LOL. There are ten FCS conferences. And since 1970 we have belonged to (and helped to found) one of only TWO of those FCS conferences that have exclusively featured HBCUs. That's a niche. And we don't have to beat the bushes to find out that the fanbase of the other two HBCUs that belong to PWI conferences (Hampton and TSU) absolutely hate their time spent in the OVC and BS. I'm not sure why some of us tend to think that our time spent in the BS will be different. And I'd bet if you had a chance to ask the TSU and Hampton's athletes where they would rather play they and what conference they would rather be affiliated with I am sure that the overwhelming majority of them would say the MEAC or the SWAC. But again...I get it. We're saving money. Increased revenue. Bus league...yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. But the history of how this has played out at Hampton and TSU does not bear well for what we will experience come 2021. Politically and culturally we are at a very important crossroads in America. And I think we are abandoning a niche (at a critical historical juncture) that can't be replicated anywhere but in the MEAC or SWAC. And I also think we'll soon pay the price for it. I hope that I am wrong.
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aggie2039
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Post by aggie2039 on Jul 3, 2020 16:55:24 GMT -5
Hampton is still Hampton, their fans didn’t support athletics while in the MEAC and nothing has changed in the BS. UNCG has more black students than SC State, UMES, Coppin, Bethune and Norfolk and Hampton...being in the MEAC has not helped HBCU enrollment. Black kids will continue to attend PWIs, Trump has been president 3 years and kids still attend PWIs.
TSU plays its games in the middle of nowhere Midwest and is located in the country music capital of the world. A&T will not be playing in the middle of nowhere. What is wrong with TSU? There enrollment is still higher than a lot of MEAC and SWAC schools.
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Post by Aggie Monster on Jul 3, 2020 17:18:06 GMT -5
Its funny how people forget who Hampton was prior to leaving the MEAC. Hampton is just being Hampton. The BS didn't change that.
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Post by DOOMS on Jul 3, 2020 17:23:37 GMT -5
The way I see it, if cats want to play against MEAC and SWAC teams they'll sign with MEAC and SWAC schools. Somehow Tennessee State consistently has higher rated recruiting classes than most every hbcu and always seems to get top transfers from FBS schools. That's with a pitiful home stadium, home games played in an empty pro stadium, and lukewarm support from the administration. I wouldn't call Nashville nowhere Midwest, but I've been there enough times to know it doesn't quite scream my name. The OVC isn't keeping TSU from getting top players by any means. If I had to guess I suspect they've had more players drafted over the past 10 years than any other hbcu.
Let Hampton mess around and hire Reggie Barlow from VSU or the oc from William and Mary and let them build the program. Heck, let Prunty start working the recruiting magic he worked as an assistant and get a staff there that can get the most out of the players. Things would change quickly.
Going back to my first point, we'll see in the very near future whether athletes steer away or towards us due to our conference switch. Methinks we may get some different athletes with different goals, but I doubt the better ones will be swayed at all by the fact we left the MEAC.
We have a much stronger fanbase than Hampton. TSU had a rabid fanbase at one point but it's kind of died down. I think that has more to do with the fact they started sucking when they joined the OVC than the fact they joined the OVC considering the ridiculous success they had prior to that point. When I was in high school exactly zero of the people that went to TSU were worried about what conference they were a member of. They wanted to attend an hbcu, and they knew TSU had a good band. That was all.
Kids today are probably a little more well-versed than that, but I'm willing to bet the majority that wanted to attend Ayantee before the change will still want to attend after the change. Who really picks a school based on what teams they play?
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Freeze
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Post by Freeze on Jul 3, 2020 20:56:27 GMT -5
The way I see it, if cats want to play against MEAC and SWAC teams they'll sign with MEAC and SWAC schools. Somehow Tennessee State consistently has higher rated recruiting classes than most every hbcu and always seems to get top transfers from FBS schools. That's with a pitiful home stadium, home games played in an empty pro stadium, and lukewarm support from the administration. I wouldn't call Nashville nowhere Midwest, but I've been there enough times to know it doesn't quite scream my name. The OVC isn't keeping TSU from getting top players by any means. If I had to guess I suspect they've had more players drafted over the past 10 years than any other hbcu. Let Hampton mess around and hire Reggie Barlow from VSU or the oc from William and Mary and let them build the program. Heck, let Prunty start working the recruiting magic he worked as an assistant and get a staff there that can get the most out of the players. Things would change quickly. Going back to my first point, we'll see in the very near future whether athletes steer away or towards us due to our conference switch. Methinks we may get some different athletes with different goals, but I doubt the better ones will be swayed at all by the fact we left the MEAC. We have a much stronger fanbase than Hampton. TSU had a rabid fanbase at one point but it's kind of died down. I think that has more to do with the fact they started sucking when they joined the OVC than the fact they joined the OVC considering the ridiculous success they had prior to that point. When I was in high school exactly zero of the people that went to TSU were worried about what conference they were a member of. They wanted to attend an hbcu, and they knew TSU had a good band. That was all. Kids today are probably a little more well-versed than that, but I'm willing to bet the majority that wanted to attend Ayantee before the change will still want to attend after the change. Who really picks a school based on what teams they play? Good points. My major concern is that as a nation, we are at a historical precipice right now. And in my opinion it continues to leave a bad taste in my mouth that we are leaving the HBCU conference that we helped to found and jetting to a floundering FCS conference that most of Black America has no clue of or interest in. Me and one of my homies were talking today and we both joked that as inept and incompetent Dennis Thomas seems to be, he just fell over backward into a PR dream with Maker coming to the conference to play for Howard....and thats a GREAT thing for the MEAC. True his signing with Howard is more about Howard than it is the conference, but rest assured the conference will benefit. And I don't think Howard is done. They will most likely sign the other 5 star recruit who is Maker's homeboy. All eyes will be on the MEAC come time for hoops and that's a marketing bonanza that I hope they reap the profits from. At this moment in history, it's a good time to boldly celebrate Blackness...and running off to the BS feels awkward at best and wrong at worst.
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Post by outsidethinker on Jul 3, 2020 23:26:56 GMT -5
Emotion vs logic...
Howard brings in top rated players all the time and do absolutely nothing with them. When was their last FB or Bball conference championship?
I understand your thoughts on Atheletes visiting other HBCU campuses, but what do they actually get to attend? They're not hitting after parties or anything else going on surrounding our cultural festivities. They're on the bus making that long ride back to Greensboro.
To better understand what you think our atheletes may miss, you have to study our away games attendance figures.
What HBCU is giving our atheletes a better anything than we're giving them at home?
I understand the history we have with our fellow MEAC members, but we're not operating in those good ole days anymore.
I've attended the Aggie Eagle classics in Raleigh. The last classic was my freshman year at A&T. Now we barely sell it out on our campus(FB).
All the older Alumni here in Charlotte always talk about the old A&T vs SCSU battle of the border games that were held here. Now we're lucky to get 12k at a game.
Times have changed. As long as we continue to support A&T we'll be just fine. Not supporting A&T because of the visiting schools sounds backwards, but so be it if boycotting and making us fail sounds better.
Shorter away trips should make our atheletes Aggie Experience that much better because they can get more invovled in campus events.
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Post by aggieswag on Jul 4, 2020 6:51:06 GMT -5
Freeze I think you are spot on. I said it in an earlier post - these kids are not us. And thank god. But you have to consider the psyche of the kid. If a kid is intentionally selecting a hbcu then he is intentionally woke. An intentionally woke kid will have major problems selecting A&T. 1. The pwi argument would be better if the pwis in the big south was worth a damn. Who cares if you beat Campbell or Monmouth. Not one person in the world. Just like no one blinked an eye when we beat Charleston southern and Gardner Webb. Facts are facts. If I am an athlete it would appeal more to me to play top schools and black opponents. That is what would motivate me. “I am glad I will be gone by the time we move to that conference- I would have had 500 yards a game “ - Jahmaine Martin ... hear that because i fear that’s what other athlete will say.
2. Recruiting tool - if I was recruiting against us to a player like that our move to the big south would be golden. It reaks of sell out. “This is the school that destroyed a black conference to save a white conference that was worse” And very easy to make that case.
I hope I am wrong. Our country is in a paradigm shift. This move does not look as good as it did yesterday. I am really worried. But also know there is nothing we can do to change it. I hope minds are coming together to address it.
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Post by Aggie Monster on Jul 4, 2020 10:41:36 GMT -5
Freeze I think you are spot on. I said it in an earlier post - these kids are not us. And thank god. But you have to consider the psyche of the kid. If a kid is intentionally selecting a hbcu then he is intentionally woke. An intentionally woke kid will have major problems selecting A&T. 1. The pwi argument would be better if the pwis in the big south was worth a damn. Who cares if you beat Campbell or Monmouth. Not one person in the world. Just like no one blinked an eye when we beat Charleston southern and Gardner Webb. Facts are facts. If I am an athlete it would appeal more to me to play top schools and black opponents. That is what would motivate me. “I am glad I will be gone by the time we move to that conference- I would have had 500 yards a game “ - Jahmaine Martin ... hear that because i fear that’s what other athlete will say. 2. Recruiting tool - if I was recruiting against us to a player like that our move to the big south would be golden. It reaks of sell out. “This is the school that destroyed a black conference to save a white conference that was worse” And very easy to make that case. I hope I am wrong. Our country is in a paradigm shift. This move does not look as good as it did yesterday. I am really worried. But also know there is nothing we can do to change it. I hope minds are coming together to address it. I have to respectfully disagree with you. I have to say that you should not be "worried" at all. I work with high school athletes ALL the time. Not as much as say, an actual head coach, but I work with them a lot. I talk to them about college choices in multiple sports. This is not their mindset at all. First -- These kids nor their parents really know the history of any of the schools outside of their general area. Yeah, if you have HBCU parents and they took you to GAMES(not tailgates) every year or you live down the street then you may know a little something. But they still don't know about BCU, FAMU, Elon, Coastal, Norfolk, etc. They just don't. Even if they have heard of some of those schools that's pretty much it. They just heard of them. Half the PEOPLE(students and parents) I talk to don't really know who is in what conference. They know somewhat, but a lot of people still think us and NCCU are part of the CIAA because of the popularity of the bball tournament. Most parents I talk to about choosing an HBCU say stuff like, "we tried and they were not interested" or "they were not offering as much scholarship money as this school over here". I just had an athlete choose UNCC over any HBCU because it was full ride vs partial ride. So we will not lose any more recruits because we play in the Big South. We will lose recruits for the reason we have always lose recruits. 2nd -- When it come to choosing a school for competition and recognition. They don't choose because of that either really, not at the FCS or Non-Power 5 they don't. That recruiting tactic is used by the SEC against other conferences. Everyone wants to WIN. Winning is the one thing that gets you recruits when they have options. No one wants to join someone that doesn't put in the effort to become winners. Thats its, it's that simple with these kids. Being an HBCU in a non-all black conference DOES NOT cross these kids nor parents minds at all. Not at all. Thats an alumni thing. We the only ones having this discussion. Maybe current players because it directly effects them but once they hit that field...A TD against Campbell feels just as good as a TD vs Norfolk state. So if we take care of home games and make our experience the best we can make it then we will always be good. You said no one cared, but no one cared because we knew all we have to do is win the MEAC and we go the the CB. Good win, but lets move on. They were non-conference. That wont be the case in 2021. We will care. At least we should, but I really think we will. Lose to one of them and blow our playoff chances and see how much everyone cares. Lastly, Jahmaine Martin. You talking about a kid that was at Coastal. Some people might think that qualifies him to speak on it and others might say, he chose them and didn't choose us until you had no options. He has a right to his opinion and I'm sure he means what he says. he even has the right to have changed his opinion over the years. But come on dude. Where was all this black love or dislike for a all white conference when you chose Coastal? He had offers from Citadel, Coastal, and Western Carolina coming out of high school. Not sure if any HBCUs offered or not because Rivals don't tend to list HBCUs that offered all the time because some of those idiots don't or didn't view us as real FCS. Anyways, he just emotional about it and he probably is glad his last year will be spent in the same conference he became a star in. I would feel that way also and probably say the same exact thing, but its not relevant to what athletes will think moving forward. If the "sellout" guilt trip actually worked on athletes then HBCUs would already be dominating FCS. Think about that.
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